Episode 91 - The Myths of Attraction with Laerke Nielsen Artwork

Managing the Smart Mind

In this podcast, master certified coach, speaker and trainer Else Kramer shares strategies from her coaching practice for people with smart minds. This podcast is geared towards gifted adults - and the people who work with them. She discusses how to avoid bore-out and burnout, how to love your fast brain whilst accepting some of the challenges it may bring, and how to design a life that perfectly supports your smart mind. She also advocates for wider understanding and acceptance of giftedness, and neurodiversity in general. Else a.k.a. Coach Kramer works with people and companies from all over the world and is based in Rotterdam, the Netherlands. She has a degree in Philosophy from King's College London, built a successful business from scratch, loves LEGO, Japan and many more things. In addition to being gifted she's autistic, with a sprinkling of ADHD, and she loves to speak about neurodiversity and giftedness in the workplace. You can find her on Linkedin, or via her website, coachkramer.org.

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Managing the Smart Mind

Episode 91 - The Myths of Attraction with Laerke Nielsen

September 07, 2023 • Else Kramer • Season 1 • Episode 91

In this podcast episode, fast-brained dating coach Laerke Nielsen and I delve into the myths around attraction and offer practical relationship strategies.

Laerke challenges the notion of instant attraction, and advocates instead for ‘slow dating’.

We look at the dangers of projecting our desires and expectations onto others and touch upon crucial topics like:

recognizing red flags in relationships,
dealing with ghosting,
how much you should demand of a potential partner,
the importance of clear and open communication.

Laerke’s main message to those of you who date is to approach it with an open mindset, let go of negative beliefs, and embrace the process with a sense of enjoyment.

After listening to this Episode you will have plenty of insight into why dating may not have worked for you yet - and you’ll have plenty of tools to navigate the world of fast-brained dating and relationships.

And even if you’re not currently looking for a romantic partner, I highly encourage you to listen in because so many of this applies to ALL our relationships - both personal and at work.

Main Learnings and Takeaways:

Instant attraction is not a reliable indicator of long-term compatibility.
Taking the time to get to know someone before developing strong feelings is crucial.
Projecting desires and expectations onto others can lead to disappointment and misunderstandings.
Authenticity is key in building healthy and meaningful relationships.
Recognising red flags and communicating openly are essential for finding and maintaining a healthy relationship.
Letting go of negative beliefs and approaching dating with an open mindset can lead to positive experiences.
Don't forget to enjoy the dating process and have some fun!

Show Notes:

Laerke's Podcast: Smart Women's Dating Podcast

https://smartwomensdatingpodcast.buzzsprout.com

Instagram: @laerkethelovecoach

https://www.instagram.com/laerkethelovecoach/

Laerke's Website: https://www.laerkenielsencoaching.com/

Ready to learn how to Manage your Smart Mind? Then download my free 'Mapping Your Unique Brain' Workbook. Go to:
https://www.coachkramer.org/brainmap to get access.

Are you interested in working with me? Click here.

Come say hi on LinkedIn |Insta | Twitter | FB

Else Kramer (00:00:09) - Welcome to the Managing the Smart Mind podcast with your host, Coach Kramer. This is episode 91, The Myths of Attraction with Laerke Nielsen. Okay, podcast listeners, guess what the Most requested podcast topic is? It is relationships. How to get and keep maintain a great relationship when you have a smart mind. So I am incredibly happy to start off a new series on smart relationship strategies with dating coach Leah Nielsen, who is going to debunk all those myths of attraction that many of us are holding. You know, all the movies we've seen, all the things we tend to believe, and these are actually holding us back from finding a fulfilling relationship. Now, Link is a pharmacist by education. She also has a degree in communication and rhetoric, which, by the way, is very fun. A second person on the podcast who has a degree in rhetoric. Go figure. And like many smart humans, she has worked in lots of different fields and roles, including as an environmental toxicologist, a journalist, a communication consultant, a teacher, medical affairs manager, marketing specialist, a breakup coach, and now a dating coach.

Else Kramer (00:01:49) - She is a certified life coach and is Danish, but she has resided in Paris since 2019. The City of Love. Right? Perfect. Now we talk all things dating in this episode. But even if you're not looking for a romantic relationship right now, I invite you to listen in regardless. Because so much of what we discuss, for example, value alignment applies to all relationships you're trying to build, whether personal business. So I think there's something useful here for everyone. So. Tune in to learn more about the myths of attraction and learn some cool tools that you can use in your relationship journey, such as slow dating, how to recognize and break your old patterns and much, much more. And of course, you're going to hear Lark's answer to the often asked question Where have all the good men gone? Enjoy it. All right, smart humans, I am so excited to introduce to you the connoisseur who is an expert in dating and relationships, and she's going to share all her incredible knowledge with us today as we take you through the myths of attraction.

Else Kramer (00:03:15) - Welcome, Laerke.

Laerke Nielsen (00:03:17) - Thank you so much for having me as I'm excited to be here.

Else Kramer (00:03:22) - And I said we we were talking just before we started recording. I said, this is a super fun as well because this is one of the first times I have someone who is culturally very close to me, as in Laerke is from Denmark, originally currently currently living in.

Laerke Nielsen (00:03:37) - In Paris. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:03:38) - Beautiful, beautiful, romantic city of Paris. But the Dutch and the Danish apparently are culturally closest to each other in the world, which is interesting because, listen, I cannot understand, like when she speaks, I don't know if you can understand me when I speak Dutch. Maybe let's I'll try it.

Laerke Nielsen (00:03:56) - I can read it. I can read part of it. But it's difficult to understand the spoken language.

Else Kramer (00:04:02) - So we'll see how this goes, this cultural sort of connection match thing. It's also kind of could be attractive. Attractive, actually. We could start there after you tell me your biggest frustration because that needs to happen first.

Laerke Nielsen (00:04:16) - Yeah. So I do have several frustrations and since we are talking about attraction today, I think my biggest frustration would be that people are too fast in deciding whether they feel any attraction or not. They don't let it grow. So why does.

Else Kramer (00:04:35) - This frustrate me?

Laerke Nielsen (00:04:37) - Yeah, because it's actually a it's too bad that there are possibilities we miss out on because we're too fast in saying if I don't feel this attraction, this chemistry sparks on the very first date or the first two dates, then I'm not interested. And then we miss out on a potential partner that could be actually really good and that we could develop the attraction to down the line.

Else Kramer (00:05:01) - I love it. And listen, this episode, so many people have been waiting for this because I always ask people, What would you love for me to do a podcast episode on? And the most requested topic is having a smart mind and relationships, right? I mean, it's insane. Like everybody's like, how can I have relationship should and actually maybe you can talk a little bit to that before we start delving deeper into attraction.

Else Kramer (00:05:29) - That eternal question that I get, especially from women, do I do I need to go for a partner who is of similar intelligence? Is that important?

Laerke Nielsen (00:05:42) - So I think that we will naturally attract someone that are about the same level, but to have exactly the same IQ. I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend that you go and do a test on a on a future potential partner. But I think it's normal that we talk well with someone who's within. I don't know if it's like five IQ points or something like that, and if there's too big of a gap, it just won't work out. So. So it will be natural that we attract someone who's about the same level, but we want to be aware of what it is we want to do with a partner and what are some things we can do with other people because we don't want to put all our activities into the same person or expect one person to fulfill all our needs. That would be a big mistake.

Else Kramer (00:06:28) - Yeah, it would be impossible. Right?

Laerke Nielsen (00:06:30) - And possible.

Laerke Nielsen (00:06:31) - Yeah. Yeah. Such a big pressure to put on one person.

Else Kramer (00:06:35) - Exactly. It would be insane. Okay, so we're diving to the myth of attraction. And one of the biggest myths is, I think and that is so amplified by media, by the movies, right? There is this one person like and cue the music, romantic music, this one person. And once you find them, you know, you will know it in your heart and they will complete you and everything will be perfect, you know, from there on out. ET cetera. ET cetera. And this. This is what people are chasing, right?

Laerke Nielsen (00:07:09) - Yeah. Yeah. And I love that it's a myth. And it's not true, because otherwise, we. We would be in trouble if we don't find this one person, of course, is not just one person. And also, the other thing we talked about is this idea that that you can just feel it, that it's just it was just there from the beginning.

Laerke Nielsen (00:07:29) - It was a chemistry. It was sparks. And if it's not there, then it's just too bad we have to move on to the next. And that is where I'm actually a little bit the opposite. The more I learn about this is I realized that it's I wouldn't trust that early attraction because when you think about it was what is it really based on when you feel very attracted to someone before you even know them, before you even know what person this is, Then of course, it has to be unconscious factors that are playing, that are creating this attraction. It's not your knowledge of this other person, so you don't even know yet if it's smart to be attracted to this person. You just know that something going on for.

Else Kramer (00:08:11) - Months or whatever it is.

Laerke Nielsen (00:08:13) - Yeah. And usually it's actually for many people it can be some patterns that are repeating where you kind of try to or you seek repeating the same situations that hasn't been solved from the past. So a classical one is like a woman who had a father that was distant, that wasn't giving her a lot of attention.

Laerke Nielsen (00:08:36) - Naturally, we feel that there's something there's some familiar familiarity in men that are not giving that attention and unavailability. Yeah. So, so not emotionally available. And then we kind of get hooked in trying to crack that code or trying to overcome that. It's like a challenge we want to overcome in order to listen.

Else Kramer (00:08:58) - Smart people like challenges, right? Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:09:01) - And it's like on a very unconscious level because it's almost like if we succeed in that, we will be healed from the past. Like we finally have proven to ourselves that we are worthy of love. And so and of course, there's also this whole question of scarcity. Once something is scarce, there's some something that's difficult to get. We value it more we think is worth more. So so this is like a very classical situation when because I work mostly with women, but I guess it can be the same with men that if you meet someone and you feel an attraction and this person is not fully available, they're not reciprocating you more easily.

Laerke Nielsen (00:09:40) - Get hooked. If you have these kind of patterns from the past. So and becoming aware of that and seeing that this is really what's going on. And then you get a chance to decide who I really want to feel attracted to that. Do I want to react to that attraction? You might still feel an attraction, but you can decide if you want to react to that.

Else Kramer (00:10:01) - I love I love that you're saying you might still want to feel the attraction because full disclosure, I have been happily together with my husband for 29 years. I still feel attraction sometimes, right? Like I'm a human being. Yeah, but you should.

Laerke Nielsen (00:10:17) - I mean, exactly right.

Else Kramer (00:10:19) - That is super fun. So it's. It's not like you need to shut down all your feelings, your desire, all the things, but sort of the next step, the acting on them. Right. That you may want to reconsider.

Laerke Nielsen (00:10:35) - Yes. And this is almost the same as when you consider having if you imagine having an urge towards eating a sugar or drinking alcohol, we can have this urge.

Laerke Nielsen (00:10:46) - We want to do it. And but then we can still decide not to react on it and and choose the the chicken salad instead.

Else Kramer (00:10:54) - Although I have to say it's much more fun to like feel the desire for a person and not act on it than feel the desire for chocolate and not act on it 100%. But what would you let's say I'm going to ask everyone who's listening, who who doesn't have a partner and has sort of things, Oh, this may be me, right? Just check in with yourself. Are you repeating this question? Is this something you're trying is this something maybe from the past that you're trying to resolve? Right. Through a relationship? So whilst you're checking in with yourself, like if you notice this as you I'm guessing the first step is not to find a relationship, maybe even.

Laerke Nielsen (00:11:39) - If you see your own patterns, if you see something is repeating that is that is already a very, very good thing because then you have awareness and so you can get curious about what is it that is repeating, what are the things that attract me in another person and be pay attention to whenever that shows up and be a little bit, you know, alert that maybe this is not actually something you want to react to.

Laerke Nielsen (00:12:04) - But it's not like early attraction doesn't have to be bad, but we just don't want it to take control of us. We don't want we assign way too much value to it and way too much meaning.

Else Kramer (00:12:15) - So power, right?

Laerke Nielsen (00:12:17) - And we want to get to know the person in and we don't want the the attraction to develop faster than our knowledge of the person and.

Else Kramer (00:12:28) - Say, stop, stop. I have to pause you there because that is massively important. Yeah. Okay. So don't know. Yeah. This is because to you, this is probably completely normal. I think a lot of people are like, What did she just say? You don't want your attraction to develop faster than your knowledge of the person. Yeah. Okay. Explain why.

Laerke Nielsen (00:12:51) - Because we want, again, as I mentioned, beginning, we want to make sure that it's a smart move to feel this attraction and to let you know, to let us react to it. And and because attraction is a beautiful feeling when it's for the right person who is actually treating us well and reciprocating.

Laerke Nielsen (00:13:09) - And we don't know that on the first two days. Like we need to know the person a little bit better. So I recommend what I call slow dating. So I suppose, Oh, that's good and juicy.

Else Kramer (00:13:20) - Tell me more slow dating.

Laerke Nielsen (00:13:23) - That you give it some time and you don't. You know, we meet someone you like. You don't have to see him every or her every day for two weeks. You you space it out. So you have maybe one day a week for like 2 or 3 months and then.

Else Kramer (00:13:37) - That's long.

Laerke Nielsen (00:13:38) - That's long. Very long. Yeah, that's very long. But, but you can ask yourself how fast can you really get to know another human being? I mean, you need to experience them in different situations. And there are the things that we can say and and experience in a communication and we can say explain about our life and share our thoughts and so on. But there are also things we need to experience with another person. We need to see how they react in a stressful situation, for instance, or if I say no to something or if we disagree, how does the other person react to that? And and this is not situations you can sort of create.

Laerke Nielsen (00:14:14) - Like I don't recommend you test your potential future partner like that is something that.

Else Kramer (00:14:20) - In one day. Yeah well if you sort of, I don't know, go camping in the mud on your first date, maybe you will find out on one date. But that doesn't sound like a very solid plan, I have to say.

Laerke Nielsen (00:14:34) - No, no, no.

Else Kramer (00:14:36) - Wow. More like a recipe for disaster. Okay, so slow dating. Wow. Yes. 2 to 3.

Laerke Nielsen (00:14:41) - Dating. Give it time. And and like this, you will have sort of a feeling of who is this other person? Is it safe to be attracted and to allow myself to to go all in on these feelings or not?

Else Kramer (00:14:53) - And how would you define safe?

Laerke Nielsen (00:14:56) - That is when you when you speak about someone that is corresponding to the kind of partner you are looking for and who is showing you the attention back, who is reciprocating and who is respecting your boundaries, who can act in a mature way when you don't agree on everything, who is listening to what you want? Basically, those are like really basic things.

Else Kramer (00:15:19) - But I'm hearing this and I'm because I'm like, I have only my one experience with the partner. I'm thinking, But isn't this like, shouldn't it always be like this? But I'm guessing it isn't.

Laerke Nielsen (00:15:31) - It isn't always, No. It could be someone who is all in for the first two weeks and then they sort of drop out or they they stop reaching out so much. And yeah, so they want something else. And they're still keeping this one person on the side and they might start negotiating. If there's a boundary, the other person is setting a boundary, then there could be like a discussion around that. Instead of just accepting it. And so there can be many different situations and you want to make sure that that this is a person that you are compatible with. And so and.

Else Kramer (00:16:04) - Compatible, I'm guessing, is very personal. So we can maybe talk about that a little bit as well. But also what are like general red flags, would you say?

Laerke Nielsen (00:16:14) - General reflex. Now I work mostly with women, and so a classical red flag would be this kind of hot and cold behavior.

Laerke Nielsen (00:16:21) - So someone who is all in and then he disappears for a while and then he comes back again and he's not really clear about commitment. And if at some point they have a discussion of where this is going, then he's going to say, let's just see where let's just see what happens. I'm not ready by your label. Let's not put labels on this. And then so a little bit like flaky. So not really or like someone who is very early inviting the other person home to their private home. Right.

Else Kramer (00:16:53) - Beat the parents.

Laerke Nielsen (00:16:54) - Yeah. No, just just the home, you know, Saturday night or calling them, you know, very late when they don't know each other that well, calling them 10 p.m. Saturday night. And now all of a sudden he's available. He wants to see you. And not for a real date, you know, little spontaneous. So those could be red flags. And, um, so basically all the things I said about the green flags were continuously showing attention.

Laerke Nielsen (00:17:22) - Consistency over a long time is really important to see. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:17:27) - And I think, by the way, this also applies to business relationships.

Laerke Nielsen (00:17:30) - Yeah. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:17:31) - Right. Mean for those those of you listening who like me aren't looking for a partner. Think this is actually solid advice also for anybody you collaborate with for example because you're looking I guess from an alignment like a very deep alignment of values. Yes. Yes. So what would you say from your experience in your practice are like the biggest mistakes in your case women, but I'm guessing also men, right? Humans, smart humans, because you work with very, you know, high achieving women. What are the mistakes they tend to make when it comes to attraction?

Laerke Nielsen (00:18:10) - When it comes to like in general, when it comes to attraction, is that we just give way too much meaning to this idea that it should be we should feel attracted very early on and it should be something that we just know this just feels right instead of giving them a little bit more time.

Laerke Nielsen (00:18:27) - And sometimes I say to these women, allow yourself to date the, so to speak, boring guy. See what happens down the line. Maybe he's he turns out to be actually quite interesting instead of going for the ones that are like it's a firework, it sparks shiny.

Else Kramer (00:18:42) - Objects.

Laerke Nielsen (00:18:43) - Go on. Yeah. So that is like the in the beginning some of the mistakes and then later on we can see with high achieving women is very classical that we compensate for. If a man is not taking initiative, then we very easily compensate for that by doing a lot of things. Our self being very proactive, organizing dates and taking leadership of the relationship. And so that what happens then is that we discover way later that the man is actually not he's not that into us. We discover that later because we've been compensating. We've been over functioning for a long time and and we can take care of a lot of things and we don't we we are low maintenance. We don't need a lot of attention from a man.

Else Kramer (00:19:27) - And because you have an amazing, fulfilling life, right? Probably a nice group of friends. You like your work, etcetera. And then you organize the dates and then But so when when do women start realizing like, maybe he's not that committed or not that into me?

Laerke Nielsen (00:19:44) - So that could be a 2 or 3 months down the line when he he has some kind of excuse that I need to figure out my life or I have to build something in my home. So I'm not really sure. I'm I'm looking for a serious relationship or or in worst case, they actually get ghosted by a man. I see that a lot as well.

Else Kramer (00:20:05) - Oh, that. Okay. Can we talk about that ghosting? Think that is like so insanely mean. That's such a horrific thing to do. Just one.

Laerke Nielsen (00:20:12) - That's horrible. That's horrible. It is the most avoidant kind of behavior. Simply just not even wanting to just send a message or just communicate. Right.

Else Kramer (00:20:23) - And just say, sorry, I'm just no longer into you or, you know, just saying, hey, it was fun while it lasted.

Else Kramer (00:20:29) - I'm moving on to other things. Even if you're rude about it, like that sucks. Sure. But come on, people. Yeah. Why do you think people ghost?

Laerke Nielsen (00:20:40) - I think it's a huge fear of this confrontation. And I think, to be honest, I think it's never okay. There's never a situation where it is okay, unless you are you are ghosting someone who is abusive.

Else Kramer (00:20:55) - Physically or mentally. Yeah. Are you.

Laerke Nielsen (00:20:58) - But but otherwise, no, it's not okay. And the other person is left with both feeling rejected because there's no not coming in response back, but also a long period of uncertainty because we don't really know. There's no clue what's going on Is he did he lose his phone, is in the hospital, Did something happen to someone in his family or. So it takes a while before the person finds out that he or she has been ghosted. Yeah. And then, of course, it feels like the biggest lack of respect, really. So, yeah.

Else Kramer (00:21:29) - And I have to say, like, if you if you've been to the people who've been ghosted, to me that is just a sign of such emotional immaturity.

Else Kramer (00:21:39) - Yeah. That you can be very happy you got away. You basically mean even though the experience is incredibly, you know, nerve wracking and the not knowing and the not having closure? Yeah. And to people listening who have ghosted, people send them a message. It's not too late. You can still make amends.

Laerke Nielsen (00:22:01) - Yeah. Yeah, that's actually a good advice. Why not? Why not?

Else Kramer (00:22:06) - Why not? Okay, So basically because we were talking about like, you know, what are the biggest mistakes these women make in dating? It is basically thinking, okay, I can quote unquote, manage this. I am used to taking charge of everything. I'll take charge of the relationship and I'll make it work. Yeah. When there's not much to work with.

Laerke Nielsen (00:22:29) - Yeah. So? So you're kind of dragging the man along sometimes and. And then you would all of a sudden discover that he wasn't actually that he was. He wasn't either he wasn't interested enough or he wasn't even capable of of showing up for a mature, committed relationship.

Laerke Nielsen (00:22:44) - Um, and therefore this, this kind of energy that we use, it's very powerful to have this in career and in business and to be proactive and take lead and all that. But I always advise them to shift their energy when it comes to dating and romance and try to lean back a little bit and stop the over function and see what happens when you do nothing. Or does he come back? Does he show up? Does he keep contacting or where is he? And it's not like you can never organize a date. It's just sometimes you want to just take a step back and see, is he still there?

Else Kramer (00:23:18) - Is this basically?

Laerke Nielsen (00:23:20) - Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Else Kramer (00:23:21) - And I have to say, I, I think some people who are in relationships and women might also want to try this.

Laerke Nielsen (00:23:30) - With that husband or.

Else Kramer (00:23:32) - Even if they're even even not necessarily their husband and or wives or whoever you know, they're sharing their life with. But I think sometimes in relationships, you have this dynamic where one person is doing all the heavy lifting and then also tends to become very resentful.

Else Kramer (00:23:48) - I may have been that person in the past. That's why I know this, right? Like, why do I have to do all the things? Well, that's because I don't sort of even create that space by leaning back. Yeah. Yeah. The other person. Right. True.

Laerke Nielsen (00:24:05) - Yeah. That is so interesting because I also had this in some of my past relationship. Like we are in the same boat, but it's always me who's rowing. And when I realized they actually didn't ask me to do that, I just did that because I wasn't patient enough. I wanted things to go to move on. And and and of course, it's very good also to just sometimes create a little bit of space because when we lean back and we allow for this space and room and also a little bit of distance and then that's where the passion can can build up again and let him come come back again towards us.

Else Kramer (00:24:40) - And this is also probably a good place to start talking a bit about perfectionism.

Laerke Nielsen (00:24:45) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:24:46) - Because I think also the reason well, if even if you do kind of lean back and allow things to happen, then if you have like these massive demands on your partner and they do a thing and you're like, No, but this is not how it should be. Yeah, that is not a great dynamic either, right? So if you allow the other person in relationship, let's say you let go of the reins and you're like, okay, let's see what the other person does, what kind of mindset we say do you want to approach this with?

Laerke Nielsen (00:25:19) - But this is really about being curious and allowing the other person to be who they are and letting go. And this, of course, is so easy to say, and it's more difficult, especially if you already in a relationship where you have your habits and you have your way of thinking, This is supposed to be like this. He should know by now and so on, where you just try to, you know, one of the exercise you can do is sit down.

Laerke Nielsen (00:25:44) - If you have a specific situation, sit down and write out. I do this also with my clients before they go on a date and write out, what do you want? How do you want this to be this day to be? What do you expect him to say and do? And then just rip a piece in two pieces, rip the paper into pieces, throw it away, solve it and be open to everything can happen. You know, it's not only your way of thinking that's the right way. And instead try to be curious to see what does he have to offer? What is the other person has to offer to the table and what are their ways of of thinking?

Else Kramer (00:26:19) - This is good for everything, right? Not just dating any meeting. You're going to have anything, any new person you're meeting. This is brilliant or even maybe going to a family reunion. That is a I love this. This is so good. Just meet people with a curious open mind instead of this massive. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:26:39) - Or your projections, your desires. And then basically all you're doing instead of seeing the person really meeting them, you're having this mental checklist like, Oh, yes. No, no, no.

Laerke Nielsen (00:26:48) - Yes, yes, yes. And that's where So of course, at some point when you meet a new person, at some point you need to evaluate if you have approximately the same values that that's important and you are aligned on that. But all this long list of things they have to do and things they have to achieve and ideas they have to agree with, put it aside for a while and just focus on getting to know someone. And this again, we talked about the earlier attraction and there's this whole idea about love at first sight. And I have I we can discuss this for a long time. What does it even mean? Can you even love someone? First side? Of course.

Else Kramer (00:27:26) - Can you. Can you tell me?

Laerke Nielsen (00:27:28) - You have to get to know them? It's not love. When you when you feel this more attraction that you feel for someone.

Else Kramer (00:27:34) - And how do you define attraction? What is attraction?

Laerke Nielsen (00:27:38) - Or It's a mix of many, many different factors. And I would say we can talk about physical attraction and and emotional attraction. And of course there's different variations, but it's for me, it's just easy to look at the these two different ones where the physical attraction is like an immediate one that you either feel or not. But if you get to know someone, we all I think we all have experienced this. We get to know someone, we find out this is a very cool person that has a great sense of humor, and I like being with this person. I enjoy the time I have. Then we start to get physically attracted.

Else Kramer (00:28:13) - Exactly. They're like, they're pretty damn sexy too. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:28:17) - Yeah. But is sort of this slow burn attraction that is much more healthier because here you actually know what you are attracted to. But attraction can, you know, there are so many different factors and some some of it is similarity, familiarity, proximity also that is a reciprocated can feel very attractive.

Laerke Nielsen (00:28:38) - But it's not necessarily that you know you sometimes we see people being attracted to another person who's not reciprocating at all. And so so instead of having this idea of a love at first sight, attraction at first sight, I always say try to focus on can you generate curiosity at first sight? Can you feel curious about this other person and try to open up and discover this person and really listen to what is it that they're saying and get curious about what's driving them? What are their emotions and motivations behind everything they are telling you? In order to facilitate that, they open up and show you the most of who they are, the best of who they are. And that, of course, also requires a little bit of time, a little bit of patience. So you don't see that in the first date. For most people, they need to warm up. They need to feel safe. They need to get to know the other person before they really show who they are.

Else Kramer (00:29:37) - I think we may even have talked about this in our preacher that my first date with my husband or second day was so successful because I dropped very sticky liqueur all over him and me and the table like it was a complete mess.

Else Kramer (00:29:50) - And I was so clumsy. And I think that is kind of like I didn't even I could have put up any facade. I don't know. And he's still like me.

Laerke Nielsen (00:30:01) - And that was kind of an icebreaker. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:30:04) - It was a good test, by the way, people, this does not mean that you need to go dropping your sticky drinks after your dates.

Laerke Nielsen (00:30:11) - So that's a risk to take, I would say.

Else Kramer (00:30:14) - But this is a good example of like, you know, something happens that is far from perfect. Right? And it was listen, it was horrible. It was really, really sticky. It was Drambuie. And we were sitting on a velvet couch in a cafe, and it was over him or over me or over the velvet couch. Like we had cafe. People from the cafe were like trying to clean it. It was like, yeah, a situation. And that is where you can also notice, Oh, is this person I'm with? Does he feel very like, does he feel shame? Is he does he feel embarrassed by me or is he totally confident like, oh, this is not a problem, Right? This is just liquid on a sofa.

Else Kramer (00:30:52) - Yeah. Nothing. It's like, I can't believe I'm with this clumsy woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:30:59) - Let me get out of here.

Else Kramer (00:31:00) - Yes, Right. Very different. Very different experience. Yeah. And I'm guessing he didn't think, Wow, this is so attractive. I mean, no, but.

Laerke Nielsen (00:31:11) - He could maybe have thought it was very charming. Like, you know, this where we show our little sort of imperfections that can actually be very charming. And so it's so wrong to think that we're supposed to be perfect because it's the little cracks that sometimes is what shows the personality and shows how we are different and and makes another person fall for us. It's not this the smooth, the perfect surface. I mean, most people get almost a bit scared if they meet someone who's too perfect, right? You can't relax. You can't be yourself. What happens when when I show that I'm not perfect? What is this other person going to think?

Else Kramer (00:31:49) - I have this exercise for my clients.

Else Kramer (00:31:51) - It's got nothing to relationships, but it's it shows how we hate perfection. It's where I ask them to basically create their perfect fantasy of themselves, right? The person they think they should be, how they should think, how they should look, how they should. How organized they should be. Right. What their house should look like, how they should react to things. And then also to like write it out, draw it, created, and look at it. And I'll be like, Do you even like this person? You want to hang out with them? And they're like, No, no. One, two, Perfect, right?

Laerke Nielsen (00:32:24) - Yeah. Yeah. We don't even want to have someone like that as a friend.

Else Kramer (00:32:29) - Exactly. Yeah. Oh, my God. No, no, no. We date them.

Laerke Nielsen (00:32:34) - And so coming back to the situation in the with the drink and of course that your reaction would also be very determining for how he sees it because that's being comfortable with whatever happens and being able to laugh a little bit of ourselves, embrace whenever we are not perfect.

Laerke Nielsen (00:32:50) - That is so, so perfect or so important and and so much better than being perfect, actually.

Else Kramer (00:32:58) - So I guess being curious when you're dating, slow dating and also imperfect dating.

Laerke Nielsen (00:33:04) - Yeah, just being authentic. I focus on the we have to be ourselves. So and that is with what we can call perceived imperfections, but with the whole package. And we need to, of course, find ways to embrace that ourself before we can put it out in the world and we can expect someone else to like it as well. But if you.

Else Kramer (00:33:26) - Hate yourself for a certain thing, then it's going to be very hard to show it to someone else, Definitely.

Laerke Nielsen (00:33:32) - But being authentic is really, really important in order to attract the right person. And and here one of the point is also to teach people that you actually want to you want to feel or you want to be rejected. Sometimes you don't want to attract everyone. You don't want to make everyone happy. I mean, that's a problem. If all of the guys want to continue dating and you want to show yourself as much as to to attract some and have someone else say, No, no, that's not my cup of tea.

Else Kramer (00:34:01) - Right? Totally. Yeah. You want to filter out the guys who like if they need to really you, they would be, like, horrified. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:34:10) - So, so not be so afraid of being rejected from time to time. Not be just because that is a sign that you've shown your authentic self to someone who was not aligned instead of adapting, trying to adapt into what we think that they want. And again, yeah, we can, Yeah. So we can be very smart in, in the sense that we figure out what, what kind of woman does he like, what what should I say and do in this situation and be strategic. But that is not a good idea.

Else Kramer (00:34:39) - I love that you're saying this. I actually have a podcast episode on this called The Chameleon Complex. I think it shows up with a lot of smart people. We just figure out what people want and we become that. Yeah, we lose ourselves in the process completely. Yeah, yeah.

Else Kramer (00:34:54) - And in dating that is a recipe for disaster. It is. Want to spend like the rest of even a couple of years with someone.

Laerke Nielsen (00:35:01) - Who expect you to be another then. Then who you really are.

Else Kramer (00:35:04) - Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:35:05) - So it's also Brandi Brown who has done a lot of work on this authenticity and vulnerability and where she says, I don't remember the exact quote, but she says, This feeling of belonging and really feeling deeply loved, it can only happen when you show your imperfect side and your vulnerable side. And this is being accepted and loved. And so you cannot you know, you cannot be authentically yourself without also accepting a certain level of vulnerability. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:35:33) - And imperfection.

Laerke Nielsen (00:35:34) - Yeah. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:35:36) - And also, by the way, in your partner.

Laerke Nielsen (00:35:38) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:35:39) - True too, which is like maybe a nice one to switch to. Like the list, right? Like the list of demands. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:35:48) - Which is so, so interesting because I rarely meet someone who has too high standards, but I often speak to clients who have what I would say the wrong standards.

Laerke Nielsen (00:35:59) - So they focus on the wrong things. Right.

Else Kramer (00:36:01) - This blew my mind when we when we met to discuss this episode. I thought you would be saying like women have way too. Their demands are way too high, right? Like in an Indian matchmaker. Like they want all the things. And you said women like the over the high achievers I work with, their standards are sometimes even too low in some aspects. So tell me more about that because that was super intriguing.

Laerke Nielsen (00:36:23) - Um, what we should focus on is the personality and the values of this other person that we're looking for and of course what kind of goals they have. If someone wants to get married and have kids, you want to find someone who has the same dream or you want to find someone who's looking for this kind of relationship where you only see each other on the weekends or whatever. You can do whatever you want today, right? There's no rules. So you want to just make sure that you're looking for someone who is aligned with with your your long term life goals, who has the personality that you're looking for.

Laerke Nielsen (00:36:55) - And here I say choose the maybe five traits. And okay, I'll.

Else Kramer (00:37:00) - Give you an example of personality.

Laerke Nielsen (00:37:02) - Traits. Like it could be someone who's adventurous and who is curious, for instance, or for some people, adventure is not that important. They want someone who's more like a home person who wants.

Else Kramer (00:37:14) - To be cozy.

Laerke Nielsen (00:37:15) - Yeah, cozy. And of course, everyone says honest. And I say, this is. This is a given. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:37:21) - This is like a basic.

Laerke Nielsen (00:37:22) - Yeah. So. So someone who's of course, they want also someone who's intelligent. And I think that is also one of the things that, as I said in the beginning, we naturally attract someone who's around the same level. It would be different. I wonder if.

Else Kramer (00:37:39) - I would challenge that, though, because I know I know super smart women and smart men who also attract people who are not the same intelligence.

Laerke Nielsen (00:37:49) - Yeah, but but would you then would you then go like more than like 2 or 3 dates and you will figure out when they get married? Okay.

Else Kramer (00:37:58) - Yeah, it happens. It doesn't always last. Right. So this is this is another question I get very often like. Is it a viable relationship model? And for some people it is. It is relatively rare, though, and think this is when there is alignment on other values, right? So, for example, if ambition isn't a very high value for you, for example, maybe that can work. If you're both like even if your level is different, or on the other hand, if you're both super ambitious, your intelligence doesn't need to be the same, right? Like you can still be super ambitious, achieve things. And if that is something that that keeps you going in life, that could work too.

Laerke Nielsen (00:38:36) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's a question of what you do with your intelligence. Yeah. You do something you like. So and it's not like someone who has a super high intelligence and who's really bored in their job because that's not inspiring. So. So you can sometimes go like a step deeper and see what is behind that because some some people want I want a man who is accomplished and successful and I need him to be in finance, for instance.

Laerke Nielsen (00:39:05) - And then I'm like, So why on earth? So what if he is actually very.

Else Kramer (00:39:11) - People in finance?

Laerke Nielsen (00:39:12) - Yeah, accomplished, but not necessarily in a traditional career. It could be a person who loves traveling and he has set a goal to travel the world and he's done you know, he has accomplished different things based on his. He's been driven by that ambition. Yeah. So sometimes it's also interesting to see, you know, what is the reason why. So it's one thing is to define what is it I'm looking for. But then the next step is to ask why? Why is that important to you?

Else Kramer (00:39:39) - Exactly.

Laerke Nielsen (00:39:40) - Yeah. To get really clear on maybe what is really important is the thing that is behind is the layer below that is the important thing.

Else Kramer (00:39:49) - So basically when you're thinking I want a partner who dot, dot, dot, go a little bit further and say so that dot, dot, dot or because dot, dot, dot. Yeah, right. So for me, I like ambition because I'm fiercely ambitious, but not in the sense like the status kind of ambition.

Else Kramer (00:40:07) - But I just want to be the best at things, right? Like a stray bar, like that kind of person. I love it. I love learning more, becoming better, honing my craft. Right. And being really ambitious in that sense. And I love that in a partner. I don't think it's like a non-negotiable, but think I'm very happy to have found a, you know, a partner who is also like in a completely different field, Right? Yeah. Has that same thing. I want to learn all the things and become the best and innovate my field. That kind of attitude. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:40:37) - Yes, yes. And then what is driving is, of course, this desire to learn and a curiosity to learn more and absorb more and constantly develop. Exactly. To keep.

Else Kramer (00:40:48) - Growing together.

Laerke Nielsen (00:40:49) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, so that's important to see. That's actually really what is below is that those, those personality traits or values that that you really appreciate so good.

Else Kramer (00:41:01) - Okay so we know now I'm just going to do a quick summary right.

Else Kramer (00:41:05) - Like slow dating.

Laerke Nielsen (00:41:07) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:41:08) - Be curious. Yes. Check for values rather than like the checklist works for a bank. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:41:17) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:41:18) - Because this in high achieving women, we live in a new age. You no longer need the guy, you know, to pay the bills. That's. That's passed us. Which is fun. Which is nice. What else? When we think about dating, what are we missing?

Laerke Nielsen (00:41:34) - What? What is important? Oh, a lot of things are important. In what respect do you mean? Like in the.

Else Kramer (00:41:42) - What are the other things people are not doing right or are ignoring when it comes to dating?

Laerke Nielsen (00:41:49) - I think that what I always start by doing with my clients is to take a look at their relationship with themselves, because that is really what one of the most determining things, if not the most determining things for what we attract and and see what we can see. Usually some after a certain age, we have a number of relationships and we can see there are some patterns that are repeating.

Laerke Nielsen (00:42:13) - It might be that we feel the partners were very different, but the way we felt and the situation, we had sort of the same situation again and again. So looking at and realizing that we have created that ourselves, even though it's painful, it's painful to see, we actually have allowed this into our life. And why did we do this and what are some ways?

Else Kramer (00:42:36) - I just want to say, like and I know you don't mean this at all, but some people, just to be super clear, this does not mean abusive relationship. No, Right. But we're not saying if you've been abused, that is your fault just for like hundred percent clarity.

Laerke Nielsen (00:42:48) - Yes. Thank you for thank you for clarifying that. Yes, of course. Yes. We are more in this in this situation where we feel now again, I'm with a person who doesn't really love what makes me special and unique, and I have to sort of adapt or I have to play small or.

Else Kramer (00:43:06) - Or a partner who isn't sure they want kids.

Else Kramer (00:43:08) - Right. That's what I hear a lot as well, like women, especially in their 30s. And they keep staying with the partner who isn't sure yet whether they want children. But of course, like biology, it sucks, right? And you're like, Hm. I don't know. Maybe at some stage. You do want to get that clarity.

Laerke Nielsen (00:43:26) - Yes. Yes, you do? Yes. And you actually want to get that clarity very early on. It is one of the things I think you can never do too early is actually have the discussion about what what is it that the other person is looking for. It's not necessarily like you're asking, do you want a long term relationship with me? But just what are you looking for? What are your.

Else Kramer (00:43:47) - Okay, so you're saying that's a good idea to ask on a first date? Like what kind of relationships? Oh, that's interesting.

Laerke Nielsen (00:43:53) - What do you see in your future love life? What is your vision? What are you looking for? Of course, with the ideal partner, not necessarily this other person.

Laerke Nielsen (00:44:01) - I mean. Sure. And the earlier you ask, the more you can ask it without any attachment to that, because it's obvious when you don't know each other. Of course you can't. It can't be about me. It's just I love this.

Else Kramer (00:44:12) - You're right. If you ask this in month four, you're asking it, like, kind of trembling, right? And you're like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I hope this doesn't mean this is the end. Whereas if you ask it on the first day, it's like, Hey, so relationships, right? What do you think? Yeah, basically.

Laerke Nielsen (00:44:28) - And then if the one one person says, Well, I'm not really I'm not really sure I'm ready for a serious commitment, you have to listen to that. You do not. Okay.

Else Kramer (00:44:38) - Think people, the.

Laerke Nielsen (00:44:39) - Person's life or me.

Else Kramer (00:44:41) - Believe people when they tell you who they are.

Laerke Nielsen (00:44:43) - Yeah. When they say what they're looking for and they are not looking for something serious that is really important to not sort of date the potential and think he can change his mind.

Laerke Nielsen (00:44:54) - I can make him show that he wants.

Else Kramer (00:44:55) - Do you think especially women think not just women, but a lot of women do do this. They think they it becomes a kind of project.

Laerke Nielsen (00:45:05) - Yeah, it does.

Else Kramer (00:45:06) - Right. And A00. He's not interested in a long term relationship. Am Or she's not interested in a long term relationship, but. Am Okay, maybe we can be amazing friends but right next Yeah. Why Why instead does their brain go to oh a project? I will make.

Laerke Nielsen (00:45:23) - Them love me. Yeah yeah it's.

Else Kramer (00:45:25) - Stay with me forever.

Laerke Nielsen (00:45:27) - Well, it's partly like wishful thinking, but also this whole thing about being drawn to a challenge and thinking that, Oh, of course, if I feel this, then he will realize that as well. We will see down the line. He maybe will change his opinion about that.

Else Kramer (00:45:42) - I totally get this. As in, I am also someone who loves the challenge. And when someone says something like to me like, Oh, you'll never do that, or that's not possible for you, I'll be like, Oh, I'll show you.

Else Kramer (00:45:55) - Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:45:56) - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Else Kramer (00:45:57) - And then be aware of that. You have that kind of propensity to, to turn into it.

Laerke Nielsen (00:46:04) - And then we need to understand, I mean, men and women think very differently sometimes. And even though he can say early on, I'm not interested in something serious, the woman might experience mixed signals. This is very normal. We we perceive what he's sending towards us as mixed signals. So but he shows up as if he is interested in something serious. But he said on the first date and then we start to convince ourselves. But it's probably because.

Else Kramer (00:46:29) - It's think, listen, men do this to trust me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. No, but she does. But then she. Right. Like say same, same, same. Okay. So why, why, why do you think that happens?

Laerke Nielsen (00:46:44) - That they send me signals or.

Else Kramer (00:46:45) - No, no, no. First of all, okay, let's let's define mixed signals because some people may be listening wondering what are mixed signals and how do I recognize them?

Laerke Nielsen (00:46:54) - Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:46:55) - So it could be someone who is texting a very it's very hot and very intense and then hesitant and actually setting up a date. Like when the one person hates you. We meet soon and then it's like, Yeah, sure, sure. And then nothing happens or, you know, so it's like, what do you really want? And then they go all in and they want the to do a lot of things together. But when we talk about long term or future plans, they are getting unclear and it's not really like we don't really know where does this person stand.

Else Kramer (00:47:27) - So this is not really mixed signals, right? From from like a higher level perspective, I wouldn't say it's a mixed signal. It's like I really enjoy having fun with you.

Laerke Nielsen (00:47:36) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's mean. It's when when you have a like the example with the texting, for instance, that that can be very easily perceived as mixed signal, Right. Someone who's intensely riding back and forth and then you're not getting a date or it's not the canceling last minute again and again and things like that where it's not really and this is where I always advise, look at the actions of the person instead of looking at what they say, because it's easy to say, Yeah, I want this and this, but it has to be followed up by action.

Else Kramer (00:48:12) - As we say in Holland, a man, a man, a word. A word. Yes. Yes.

Laerke Nielsen (00:48:19) - Reliability. Yes. That. They do what they say they will do. And it's the same for women, right? You also want to be reliable as well.

Else Kramer (00:48:26) - Yeah, it's the same for whatever gender. Just be a fucking reliable human being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that is definitely a red flag. Like if people are cancelling dates. And by the way, I have experienced this with business partners who, like, consistently show show led to meetings or stuff like that. And you know, there comes a point where you just have to set a boundary and you're like, this is if you're not reliable or you're not shipping your your stuff, right? You're not doing your part of the project consistently, then it's just we, you know, we could still be friends, but we're just not either going to date more or work together.

Laerke Nielsen (00:49:07) - Yeah, yeah. Reliability is super important and it's even on the small things such as saying, I'll call, I'll call you tonight and then nothing happens because bit by bit, if, if this happens again and again, you just lose trust in the other person.

Laerke Nielsen (00:49:25) - And without trust, there's just no relationship is it's just the foundation of any kind of relationship that you can trust the other person.

Else Kramer (00:49:33) - I love this 100%. I mean, again, one of the reasons I love my husband so much is he's so solid. Yeah, so solid. And also, I have to say, my best friends, right? I can I know in my bones, I can call them in the middle of the night if something's gone wrong and they'll be there for me.

Laerke Nielsen (00:49:50) - Okay?

Else Kramer (00:49:51) - That's right.

Laerke Nielsen (00:49:53) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:49:53) - If their phones aren't. Yeah, but yes. So that kind of trust, that kind of reliability. So. Okay, so we're we're doing this slow dating. Um, all the signs are good. They look reliable, right? They're keeping their promises. But we don't think they're that attractive. Like physically? No. What? Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:50:21) - So if you're. Are you have you been dating for, like 2 or 3 months and you're still not attracted? Then I would say, okay.

Laerke Nielsen (00:50:30) - You cannot force it. And if you force yourself to try to feel attracted, you probably will feel a lot of resistance in yourself. You can.

Else Kramer (00:50:39) - Is it even possible to force yourself to be attracted?

Laerke Nielsen (00:50:43) - I think that.

Else Kramer (00:50:43) - Would be hard.

Laerke Nielsen (00:50:44) - I mean, we can do a lot with our thoughts, but within certain limits, right? There are some there are some people that is easier to feel attracted to and others where it's almost impossible. But you will be able to do a lot with your thinking. But I don't think we can force ourselves there. I think we can do it's easier to generate affection, compassion, feelings like that compared to attraction. And if there is a.

Else Kramer (00:51:12) - Huge physical component to attraction, like to physical attraction, there's a pheromones, there's all the biological stuff happening. And I'm not sure you can control that when you're thinking.

Laerke Nielsen (00:51:23) - I think that part of it we can. And I and I think that we can facilitate that. It can develop like when we when we do this dating where we take the time and we are curious and we allow the other person to really open up and show them who, who they are, um, and, and practice and just giving it time and, and being present with the other person.

Laerke Nielsen (00:51:44) - We can do a lot to sort of optimize the chances of it developing. And then if it doesn't mean, if it doesn't come, if you feel absolutely nothing after 5 or 6 days I would already say there, you don't even feel like being physically close to the other person.

Else Kramer (00:52:02) - You don't want to touch the person, reach out, pull their, grab their arm or yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:52:07) - Then it can be difficult to try to force yourself and to show you, I just want to let it go.

Else Kramer (00:52:12) - Okay, So that is kind of a sign that you may want to stop dating and maybe become friends. Yes, if you like them.

Laerke Nielsen (00:52:18) - Yes, if you like. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:52:20) - And if they want that, by the way, it's also up to them, of course, because.

Laerke Nielsen (00:52:23) - It's not that this this the big problem here with attraction is that it's not a given that when we feel attracted to someone, they also feel it that isn't this.

Else Kramer (00:52:33) - The worst thing in the world? I mean, seriously, there's so many.

Else Kramer (00:52:36) - Like I used to sing Schubert songs and there's one Schubert song. Um, I mean, this is like the romantic period, right? Like, this is centuries ago. And this song is about a man loving a woman who then, of course, loves another man. Right. It's such an old story.

Laerke Nielsen (00:52:51) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, unfortunately, is not reciprocated. And some people can feel like a very strong attraction. And it's of course, it's painful that it's not reciprocated, but it's not a given.

Else Kramer (00:53:05) - Yeah. So really hear this people again, hear people when they tell you who they are, but also hear this. It isn't even if it feels like, Oh my God, you have like all these super intense feelings. And it can be overwhelming, right? For a person. Even if you feel all those things, it doesn't mean they are feeling the same thing to for, you know. And and that doesn't say anything about, you know.

Laerke Nielsen (00:53:34) - Exactly. Exactly.

Else Kramer (00:53:36) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:53:37) - It's cruel, but it's reality. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:53:42) - And it is a really it is a I mean, it would be so nice if we were only attracted to people who are attracted to us. Yeah. It's not a sign that we're meant to be or something that we feel this is not.

Else Kramer (00:53:59) - But again. Right. Like that's what our brain likes to tell us. Like, if I feel this strongly about this person, yeah, there's got to be something there. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:54:07) - Yeah, he must. He must feel something as well. Exactly. Yeah. So.

Else Kramer (00:54:12) - So how do people get out of this? Because it can be become almost like an addiction, right? Because it is nice. It is a nice feeling to feel so attracted to someone.

Laerke Nielsen (00:54:23) - Yeah, it is a it is until certain level where it becomes painful, of course, because the other person is not responding to that. But now we talked a little bit about can you force it? But and I think that is difficult, but we can facilitate that.

Laerke Nielsen (00:54:38) - It can develop. On the other hand, something that we do want to work on and trying to take a little bit control of, that's when we feel attracted to someone that we don't want to be attracted to because they are not giving us the attention. They're not interested exactly.

Else Kramer (00:54:52) - They're just not interested in us as a partner.

Laerke Nielsen (00:54:55) - And and that's where what one step you can do is sit down and try to get really clear on why am I attracted to this person? What is it they're doing and saying, What is it that makes me feel attracted and what are the things that are also sort of see the whole picture out of the package? The person is not showing interest for me. The person is not giving me the attention I want and it's just not the this other person is not showing up the way I would like to, to have a partner show up. Yeah. And then try to think of that as just plain unattractive, like try to reprogram.

Else Kramer (00:55:32) - That makes them kind of ugly.

Laerke Nielsen (00:55:34) - Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:55:34) - Some, some, some. A person who is not giving you attention, not coming towards you, not taking initiative, not making up their mind whether they want or not want to be in a relationship. See that as something very unattractive, very uninspiring, very uninteresting, instead of as a project to overcome or a challenge to overcome, try to reframe our thinking about this other person and see how that is actually this whole scarcity in in attention, because that's what it is. It's scarcity. That is not a sign that is more valuable. It's not a sign that I should work harder to get it or he is more interesting or her. It is a more a sign that this is just not interesting for me.

Else Kramer (00:56:17) - Yeah. And I think it can be very hard for people if they've experienced that kind of super intense physical first. Attraction when they then start dating other people to not think, Oh, but I should be feeling the same level, right of attraction. And if not, something's wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:56:38) - And this whole thing about this box and the early attraction who say be skeptical towards it, Don't let it be your guide for who's right for you or not. Of course it can. It can't be. And it can happen that this person that you feel this instant chemistry with is also good in the long term. It's a good match in the long term, but it's not a given. So would you say.

Else Kramer (00:57:00) - Pride and Prejudice is a good example of like the slow burn? Like Darcy and Elizabeth. Hate at first sight.

Laerke Nielsen (00:57:14) - No mean we we have a we don't have like. I think that what is what media is trying to show us is either this one situation where it's just the it was just there from the beginning. It was love at first sight and everything was perfect or the other where there was a conflict and then all of a sudden it shifted and they fell in love and.

Else Kramer (00:57:36) - They lived happily ever after. And they never had an argument ever again in their lives.

Laerke Nielsen (00:57:40) - So that's not realistic.

Laerke Nielsen (00:57:43) - But the story where someone is developing like is there's a little bit of attraction and it is developing and it's taking time and that's a bit we don't see it that often. It does happen, but we get a little bit caught in this idea of.

Else Kramer (00:57:58) - How you can create a playlist that can produce show notes of actually real romantic movies. That would be fun. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (00:58:06) - If only I was an expert in romantic movies.

Else Kramer (00:58:08) - Yeah, but seriously, if there's anything you can think of and listeners, if you're like, okay, I have actually seen a realistic but yet still hopeful and fun romantic movie send it in. And our attitude is show notes because there is a problem with the way media portrays love. I would think. Right. Our expectations have become so ridiculous.

Laerke Nielsen (00:58:27) - Completely.

Else Kramer (00:58:28) - Yeah. Right. And then reality, which is actually pretty cool, I think in so many ways. People like have no idea how fun reality actually is because they have this weird idea of how it should be. And that is just the media has just basically ruined the reality of relationships for people.

Laerke Nielsen (00:58:45) - But yeah, and the expectations are completely unrealistic to this other person is going to make me happy and they're going to complete me. And if that's not the case, they're not right for me. Exactly. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:58:59) - What would complete me even be? What does that mean?

Laerke Nielsen (00:59:02) - Yeah, well, there's there's it would kind of insinuate that you're not complete.

Else Kramer (00:59:06) - Exactly right. It's kind of offensive.

Laerke Nielsen (00:59:08) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:59:09) - Yeah. Like am this puzzle piece and there's something missing, and I needed to be whole. Yeah, but we do know where it comes from. That comes from, of course, from the Greek myth. Yes, but there was. There was something else I wanted to talk to you about. God, it's just. It was there. Yeah. And that.

Laerke Nielsen (00:59:26) - Was gone.

Else Kramer (00:59:27) - Oh, no, I know. I remember now because this is also something I always get asked again, especially by the women. Where? Where have all the good men gone? Maybe that's another myth we need to talk about like that.

Else Kramer (00:59:43) - There are no good men left. No good single men.

Laerke Nielsen (00:59:48) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:59:49) - So let's talk.

Laerke Nielsen (00:59:49) - About that man. That is so. That is so interesting. Yeah, I hear the same all the time. But where do I find them? Where do I go? And it's not.

Else Kramer (00:59:59) - Hiding.

Laerke Nielsen (00:59:59) - Yeah, everywhere. Everywhere. I mean, you can meet them. I have a client who met a man in a parking space and have another one who met one in a in an airplane. You know, you can meet them everywhere. It's not about where you go. It's about the energy that you go out into the world with. The second you leave your home, you can meet someone if you are open and you are approachable. That's also a big thing. Being approachable, being a present.

Else Kramer (01:00:26) - What does that look like? What is being approachable.

Laerke Nielsen (01:00:29) - Is that, for instance, like instead of having a sort of a headset, listening to something all the time, which we all have a tendency and checking our phone all the time and maybe have a little bit this face like we're deep in our thoughts or concentrating about something, we're not actually available to the surroundings.

Laerke Nielsen (01:00:47) - So we want to practice, not all the time because we sometimes we need to. We are on the go.

Else Kramer (01:00:52) - We're in our bubble or Yeah, yeah, recharge.

Laerke Nielsen (01:00:54) - So but sometimes just take a moment. Like if you go to a cafe, you go to a library, you go somewhere, just take a moment and, and be 100% present. Practice being in the moment and look around and notice who is there and feel your senses Notice. How does it smell and what what are some people that are around me make eye contact with them and smile to some of them to just show them that you were you are present. You are there with your mind as well.

Else Kramer (01:01:27) - I love that basic mindfulness. Right? Like which is great to do anyhow. Again, for the people not looking for a partner do this too, right? Like you get to have so much more fun this way when you are in the world like this and you feel the things and you see the people and maybe even you do a little flirting with the barista or whoever it is.

Else Kramer (01:01:45) - Right. It is so fun. This is joy to your life.

Laerke Nielsen (01:01:49) - Yes. And the other person that sees you smiling, you make that day because there was a woman smiling or a man or whoever you are. So listen, not.

Else Kramer (01:01:58) - Just not just a smiling listen. Someone has seen me. Someone has noticed me. That is like such a gift you can give to it is 100%. We all want to be seen.

Laerke Nielsen (01:02:09) - Our presence is such a big gift to another human being. And we cannot you know, we don't value that enough. We don't realize how powerful that is, that we don't have to think about performing or showing how great we are and impressing another person. Just have the.

Else Kramer (01:02:27) - Perfect thigh gap and yeah, yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (01:02:30) - And because and it's not about, you know, sometimes also here people want to be more interesting. They want how can it be more interesting? And there is a one simple way and that's basically just to be interested. Instead be interested in the other person.

Laerke Nielsen (01:02:44) - Be open and available to discovering who is it, Who is this other person? If you are on date with someone.

Else Kramer (01:02:51) - Okay, so be open. Right? So and it's funny because where have all the good men gone? They're not gone and they're not hidden somewhere in a vault for you to unlock. Right?

Laerke Nielsen (01:03:03) - They're hidden.

Else Kramer (01:03:04) - And the same with all the good women or whatever it is, whatever gender it is you're looking for, they are not hiding somewhere and they have not been hidden from you. They are all about. And listen, I do want to speak to you like, first of all, yes, you have less options, fewer options if you are like, you know, at the end of the bell curve and you want someone similar, you have fewer people. To choose from that is a given. That doesn't mean there aren't like thousands of potential matches for you. Yes.

Laerke Nielsen (01:03:39) - Yes. Yes.

Else Kramer (01:03:41) - Very important. Okay. So be open.

Laerke Nielsen (01:03:43) - What else? Be open and then the mindset around.

Laerke Nielsen (01:03:46) - So we have you know, in the coaching industry, we talk about money mindset. And so I talk about man mindset. It's about being, you know, thinking constantly, reminding yourself that there are plenty of men out there and you can do a little test if you, you know, you can look at how many people live in your city or in your area, and then you can try to see, okay, how many of these are men or women, what you're looking for, how many of them are in my age bracket? And then you can sort of calculate that it is typically there's there's huge number. I mean, as soon as there's more than a thousand, you know, you can't even date a thousand of them. And so even if you are very selective and you imagine only maybe 1 or 2% of them are interesting for me, you typically end up with a number that's high enough to to imagine more than.

Else Kramer (01:04:37) - You can cope with. Yes.

Laerke Nielsen (01:04:39) - Yes. So the mindset around that and practicing noticing when you see someone who could have the some of the character traits that you're looking for and remind yourself they exist, they exist.

Laerke Nielsen (01:04:51) - They are everywhere.

Else Kramer (01:04:53) - 100%. And as you were saying, like you don't need to go to special secret network meetings, right? To no, no men that you can the library or in the grocery store or at the parking lot or whatever. Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (01:05:06) - So I always say do both the organic dating and online dating. So make sure to put yourself out there. Of course, he's not going to come knock on your on your door unless it's the UPS guy, you know.

Else Kramer (01:05:19) - But otherwise, listen, have you seen my guy though?

Laerke Nielsen (01:05:23) - Okay. So you you have to put yourself out there, but also go on the on some of the dating apps because it is although most people really hate them. But it is such a good tool for meeting people you normally wouldn't.

Else Kramer (01:05:36) - Okay. Okay. I love that you're saying this because I. I hear the same people like, oh, the dating apps are awful and they're just trash and the people are horrible. And you're saying, No, not at all.

Laerke Nielsen (01:05:47) - There's nothing wrong with the dating apps. It's just the platform is completely neutral.

Else Kramer (01:05:51) - It's neutral.

Laerke Nielsen (01:05:52) - Completely neutral. And it's a tool for connecting with someone that you wouldn't normally have run into and that could be actually really good matches. So it will expand your network like this. And you can in an afternoon, you can go through a number of profiles. It's actually very time efficient to to go on some dating apps use like 1 or 2 dating apps and then are there.

Else Kramer (01:06:14) - Any specific you would recommend.

Laerke Nielsen (01:06:16) - So that's very different from country to country. What is the reputation they have? Right. So I usually don't and I ask them, I ask my clients, what is the most popular in your country? Because it is it does some very local ones as well that sometimes are the most popular apps in the area. So yeah, so there's like I think there's like 1500 apps if not more.

Else Kramer (01:06:41) - Okay. So do some research. Are there any dating apps or smart people that you are aware of? I think there was an initiative, but it died out.

Laerke Nielsen (01:06:53) - But I think that has changed a lot. And it wasn't actually really. No. So that I am not sure if that exists.

Else Kramer (01:07:02) - Interesting too, and I think there was someone who started it, but I think there's also it's problematic for a lot of reasons, which we won't go into here. Right. Okay. So go on a dating app. And how do you when you go on dating apps, how do you make sure first of all, it doesn't become like it doesn't destroy your self-confidence. Let's say you're a man, a man or a woman over 50. I have heard stories from people like nobody wants to date me. I'm like too old. Like all the men in my age bracket wants one to date women who are, like, 20 years younger than me. Does that mean you're only wrong platform or mean? How can you like have a fun dating experience online dating experience? How how do you design that?

Laerke Nielsen (01:07:48) - Yeah. So there's a lot to be said to that. That's like a whole.

Else Kramer (01:07:52) - Different podcast episode.

Laerke Nielsen (01:07:55) - But you need to I mean, first of all, I would say when you when you scroll through profiles, for instance, you want to make sure not to do that every day and all the time because it's draining this. This is this is every time you see a profile, you need to decide is it in or out, right or left. And that creates decision fatigue all the time based on very few information. So I recommend only do this maybe once a week, and then you have a selection of people that you match with and then you you connect with them and communicate with them and see how that develops. So and if you feel there's a that men my age are only looking for younger women, that's not true. Of course, those who are looking, there are some who are looking for younger women, but they are not someone for me, right? I'm looking for someone who's looking for a woman my age. So we're going to just look apart from those and then focus on the ones that are actually in my group.

Laerke Nielsen (01:08:53) - And then you can add on one more app If you feel this is not going anywhere, use another app as well. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:09:00) - So basically be again, like same with the dating, I guess with the whole process. Be open minded, be curious, test a couple of things, see what works for you, what doesn't.

Laerke Nielsen (01:09:08) - It's all about experimenting and trying out, you know, put out a profile that shows you that makes you stand out a bit, that shows the things that are unique about you. Don't be scared about showing that and don't waste time on or space in the profile writing all the things that everyone else writes. So put something special and unique and and then choose based on just someone not there's no warning signs. And it looks like he could be actually. Okay, but don't expect to feel attracted or like this is this is going to be the love of my life or something like that. A lot of the data that has been made based on people who met each other in apps, they show that whenever someone met their future husband or wife, it was just another profile.

Else Kramer (01:09:58) - Right? It was like, no.

Laerke Nielsen (01:10:00) - No, it was just someone that looks he could be a decent guy.

Else Kramer (01:10:03) - This could be fun, right?

Laerke Nielsen (01:10:04) - Yeah. I can have a coffee with him. And all you need to imagine is, can I have a coffee with this guy or not?

Else Kramer (01:10:12) - This is a coffee test, basically, right?

Laerke Nielsen (01:10:14) - Yeah. It's not like, Oh, can I share the rest of my life with this person? It is impossible to say so. So the the dating app is just for connecting and like a few exchanges. And then you move on to real life. Don't hang in there writing for weeks and weeks and weeks. It's not a good way. It's a waste of energy.

Else Kramer (01:10:32) - Yeah, a lot of energy. And think also it can really undermine people's self-confidence if they get sort of stuck in that. Especially by the way, I'm just right now talking to my ADHD people who have rejection sensitive dysphoria. Be very careful with this. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (01:10:49) - Get out quickly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's really about and also just seeing it as one tool, go out and meet people, make sure you are you are visible, make sure you are in this energy of being open and present and approachable. Whenever you go to places where you could potentially meet someone.

Else Kramer (01:11:09) - Which is basically everywhere.

Laerke Nielsen (01:11:11) - It's everywhere. Yeah, yeah.

Else Kramer (01:11:13) - Just reminding people, right? Like literally, I mean, if you have a client who met their partner in the parking lot, you literally can meet people everywhere.

Laerke Nielsen (01:11:21) - Yeah, you can meet them everywhere, that's for sure.

Else Kramer (01:11:23) - Isn't that fun? I mean, in that in that sense, the world is like a playground in a date ground and not like I don't mean that in a creepy way. People are just it's fun to walk around like, Oh, look, there's a human that could be interesting and fun to play with, for sure.

Laerke Nielsen (01:11:39) - Yeah. And then, of course, this is like the basic thing you need to be open to whenever you leave your home.

Laerke Nielsen (01:11:46) - You could meet someone, but then of course, there are different give advice and what are some ways you can some places you can go, things you can consider? Okay.

Else Kramer (01:11:55) - Are you willing to share that advice?

Laerke Nielsen (01:11:58) - Yes. I mean, one of the things is, of course, do things that you would have done in a way that interests you. So if you want to go to a conference about something, you want to go to some kind of a lecture about. If you're very much into philosophy, then go there because because you want to do it anyway. And then if you connect with someone is someone who's already interested in that.

Else Kramer (01:12:18) - You really have at least some some overlap.

Laerke Nielsen (01:12:21) - Yes, Yes. So all these activities, things that you would have done anyway and that but that you might not have put on the agenda if you want a single. Yeah. So things where you say, okay now I'm actually I'm going to be a little bit more active, I'm going to go out a little bit more.

Laerke Nielsen (01:12:35) - But it has to be things that interest me and where I sort of expand my horizon a little bit. So those are some of the things and go, you know, go for a walk in the park, borrow a dog is also something you can try because people with dogs, they so easily get in touch with each other and you go into a park or, you know, just put yourself out there all the time.

Else Kramer (01:12:59) - Are there rental dog services already? Can you rent?

Laerke Nielsen (01:13:04) - Think what you can do. You can offer yourself as.

Else Kramer (01:13:06) - You can probably make money walking dogs for other people. And then also like me or me here. Next, partner. Yeah. It's like we win. Yeah, it's so good.

Laerke Nielsen (01:13:14) - But it's funny, this thing about where where they are, I mean, they really are. It's really a question of shifting our mindset and also becoming good at a practice noticing when we see someone who could be a potentially a good match. And even if we don't know if they are single or not, just put it into the brain as a reminder that there are someone out there that could be potentially interesting.

Else Kramer (01:13:37) - And just for those people who have been burned badly in the past and who are listening to this and just thinking, I'm sorry, all men are assholes or women are assholes, like old people are assholes, then you just have some work to do, right? Because obviously that isn't true and it sucks that you had this bad experience. But if that is the way you're still thinking, then maybe first you have some inner work to do before you want to.

Laerke Nielsen (01:14:00) - Yeah, start dating for sure. Yeah. Yes. Because again, we are creating, we are creating our own reality. So if we have this programming that they all are assholes or whatever, then this is what we're.

Else Kramer (01:14:11) - Going to find.

Laerke Nielsen (01:14:12) - The reasons you could have the perfect partner just in front of you. You won't see him because you only see the ones that are confirming your belief.

Else Kramer (01:14:22) - Exactly. This and this has been amazing. I'm looking at the time we have to start wrapping up any other stuff where you think this is essential for people to know when they think about attraction, when they're dating?

Laerke Nielsen (01:14:35) - I think that.

Laerke Nielsen (01:14:36) - I think we covered a lot of the most of a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It is really the step number one is to become really aware of what are the patterns you had from the past. And then I would say actually uplevel, a lot of women need to uplevel their standards in order to attract a different kind of man. And probably the same with men. I only work with women, so I wouldn't be able to say but become clear in what it is you're looking for and build a strong and loving relationship with yourself. So become your own best partner to begin with and then go out and and start dating and be aware of what are the criteria, the right criteria, and not the ones that are useless about the specific career or specific things they have accomplished. So get curious about what is it that you're looking for and why. Yeah, and then not.

Else Kramer (01:15:29) - The accolades, but what do you make the accolades mean?

Laerke Nielsen (01:15:32) - Yes. Yes.

Else Kramer (01:15:33) - Yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (01:15:34) - And then as we talked about the be a, be curious, be patient, give it some time.

Laerke Nielsen (01:15:40) - Do the slow dating don't expect the attraction early on, but give it some time. And if it doesn't develop then move on to the next.

Else Kramer (01:15:49) - And I would just want to add to this, which is all very solid advice. Try and have some fun in the process. Yeah, yeah.

Laerke Nielsen (01:15:56) - We didn't even talk about that is actually a big part of I think that is so important. And what I work with my clients and find ways that they think it's fun to play because if we have fun when we are dating, we can continue until the right one is there. We're not.

Else Kramer (01:16:14) - The same. It's the same for everything. Like and I say this when I coach people and building their business, it's exactly the same thing. Yeah, you want to have fun doing it because you're going to be spending a lot of time on it and energy and effort. So it needs to be fun for you, first of all, to want to continue doing it. But you only have one life. Make it juicy and joyful.

Else Kramer (01:16:34) - Yes. Yes, for.

Laerke Nielsen (01:16:36) - Sure. That is so important. Yes. Thank you for mentioning that.

Else Kramer (01:16:40) - Thank you so much for all these insights and for helping us debunk all the myths of attraction. If you guys want to learn more about lyrics, she also has a podcast, so I highly recommend you check that out. I'll leave all the links to her and the podcast in the show notes. Again, thank you so much. Happy dating everyone.

Laerke Nielsen (01:16:59) - Thank you so much. It's.