Episode 88 - Chasing Dreams Across Borders with Ashley Duque Kienzle Artwork

Managing the Smart Mind

In this podcast, master certified coach, speaker and trainer Else Kramer shares strategies from her coaching practice for people with smart minds. This podcast is geared towards gifted adults - and the people who work with them. She discusses how to avoid bore-out and burnout, how to love your fast brain whilst accepting some of the challenges it may bring, and how to design a life that perfectly supports your smart mind. She also advocates for wider understanding and acceptance of giftedness, and neurodiversity in general. Else a.k.a. Coach Kramer works with people and companies from all over the world and is based in Rotterdam, the Netherlands. She has a degree in Philosophy from King's College London, built a successful business from scratch, loves LEGO, Japan and many more things. In addition to being gifted she's autistic, with a sprinkling of ADHD, and she loves to speak about neurodiversity and giftedness in the workplace. You can find her on Linkedin, or via her website, coachkramer.org.

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Managing the Smart Mind

Episode 88 - Chasing Dreams Across Borders with Ashley Duque Kienzle

August 18, 2023 • Else Kramer • Season 1 • Episode 88

I love meeting smart humans who are as interested in emotions as I am - so it was such a joy interviewing Ashley on emotional (and physical) well-being, AI, the start-up scene, living in Barcelona and much, much more.

Ashley is an experienced strategy and product leader who has delivered artificial intelligence products at companies such as Amazon and Facebook and helped shape technology strategy at Capital One and American Express.

She has a BA in Behavioural Biology and MA in Communications focused on Behaviour Change from Johns Hopkins University. And she’s obsessed not just with health, but also with making generative AI more inclusive.

We cover a very broad array of topics, including:

Ashley’s reading habits and how she keeps her brain active
The Importance of embodiment and bodily sensations
Her passion for understanding the impact of trauma, nutrients, and movement on health
Daily routine for mental and physical health
Challenges and experiences of living in different cities and countries
Reflections on biases and barriers in society and the tech industry
Concerns about AI, social media, and the need for diverse voices in discussions
How to meet like-minded smart humans to play and collaborate with

And at the end, Ashley extends an invitation to anyone who wants to work on making generative AI more inclusive - you can contact her via her LinkedIn below.

Enjoy this whirlwind journey through the world of health, emotions, and tech!

Show Notes

Ashley's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyduquekienzle/

Almma Health: https://sites.google.com/almmahealth.com/almma/home

Ready to learn how to Manage your Smart Mind? Then download my free 'Mapping Your Unique Brain' Workbook. Go to:
https://www.coachkramer.org/brainmap to get access.

Are you interested in working with me? Click here.

Come say hi on LinkedIn |Insta | Twitter | FB

Episode 88 - Chasing dreams across borders with Ashley Duque Kienzle

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:00:10) - Yes. Thanks. I'm excited to be here. Okay. Ooh. Oh, good question. Um, so. I read a ton. I may like vociferous reader. So I would say. If I'm bored in conversations, I tend to have a I'm trying to get better about this because I tend to jump in because my brain is often ten steps ahead of where we are and I'm trying to get better at this. So I would say that's one way that I remove myself from boredom or I change the topic. And then, yeah, I read I read a lot just to make sure because I love learning, I love I think it also obviously deepens conversations when you have other things to to be able to draw from. Also problem solving all that. So I'm constantly, constantly reading and then also I'm my legs are kind of always moving. So it's a mix of like the ADHD with restless leg syndrome, which, who knows, like those are probably interrelated in something. Um, so, so I think that's also like I keep my brain going by also moving all the time.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:01:51) - Yeah, exactly. Move! Move. Exactly. Who? Oh, for sure. Sure. I don't want it to be exact. This. I like that. I like that. Um, yeah, so I'm. I think so I'm in the middle of, well, kind of towards the end of reading how emotions are made, which are so amazing. Right? So good. Oh, you have to. It's. I'm obsessed. And it's. It's actually quite sorry. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:02:53) - Okay? Yes. Yes. Amazing.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:03:03) - Yeah. So it's interesting. So, okay, I'm going to. I promise I'll come back to the embodiment. But I have a tendency to, like, bring all these things together. So, um, every so I've interns and every cohort of interns. Let's say I read. Well, I read and I make them read with me. Um, a book based in science that has some tangential relevance to my company, but it's always like neuroscience, behavior change, health, a lot of these things which.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:03:34) - So I studied behavioral biology and then did my master's in behavior change. And I've really always been super passionate about how we're interconnected, right? So how the body, the brain, the intellect, the emotion, all of these different systems, including how we relate to one another, are interconnected. And that's why I chose behavioral biology, because it was neuroscience physics, but also anthropology, sociology. How do all these pieces come together to impact health? And so that's that's part of the basis of the company, but also just something I've been super passionate about for for ages. And so we're reading, we I give them like a selection of a couple different books and they all chose how emotions are made. I don't think they fully understood how science based it was going. Yes. And so we we get together in person. It's actually this afternoon, this week, and we discuss 1 or 2 chapters, depending on how much we read and we discuss like I want them to really get into it because I don't want to sit there just explaining or saying, you know, my perspective.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:04:39) - And it's really a way that I found to help them learn critical thinking, which we can get to another topic later on that I think is really a dying skill, unfortunately. So anyway, we we get together and then we discuss like what was interesting, what was confusing, and then how could we apply what we learned to this, to the product and, and or to our lives. Right. And so one of the things that I believed and really was touting, you know, to who anyone would listen when I was even in undergrad was the obvious connection I saw to continual like lack of nutrients, lack of movement and trauma. So let's call trauma, as in living in poverty, living in a place where there's constant, you know, gunshots or fear and parents yelling. Exactly. And how that clearly would be tied to future addictions and problems. Like, I really don't think it takes a genius to figure that out. But alas. And she so this was so great because I was I was reading we were reading the, um, Emotions and Illness chapter this week.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:05:45) - And she really validates that both with science but also with her, her new constructs. And so I think one of the things coming back to the question around embodiment, one of the things that this has really helped me is not not only validating kind of what I knew was true and the obvious like we need, you know, nutrients that are healthy for our brains or our bodies. We need to move all these different things to help keep us in quote unquote, equilibrium. Um, and one of the things that even more so she's reinforced for me is how I can take those sensations, especially as a woman, because I do think, you know, when we're going through and she mentions this as well, like during both our periods as well as menopause and all those things that oftentimes there's bodily sensations that we don't know how to categorize. And so being attuned, which also means living in the moment, which is something I'm really also trying to do a lot more of because we are so heady and trying to kind of pull myself out of that like quantification that I love so much.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:06:48) - And I'm not saying there's not a place for that, but to be able to really come back to, okay, if I'm suddenly okay. For instance, here, San Juan, it's been there's fireworks outdoors. They call them Barcelona is obsessed with without those I don't know what it is for fireworks. I don't know what it is. Today happens to be the 4th of July. And that's the only time I really remember hearing them other than New Year's Eve in America. But here it's like all the time. And so my dogs have massive responses. And I found myself the other night having a response. I was starting to feel because they're going off at like 11 p.m. and I'm normally like by 945 starting to feel my body respond. And and I was able to say, actually, this is not a stress response. This is purely your body responding to large because didn't grow up thank God with yelling screaming in my household. It was very, very calm. And I've always had really sensitive ears. So that puts me on alert.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:07:46) - So I'm able to say, okay, I'm feeling this body sensation. This is not anxiety, this is not stress. This is just a response to this arch. Exactly, Exactly. And so I think I've becoming more and more attuned, especially as I get older and become aware that like, okay, let me capture that, if you will, similar to what I've done to really change my my brain, to be more positive, focused on like my own self thoughts similar with these responses like, okay, let's capture those and say, no, this is like a natural response, but let's channel it this way or let's do whatever it may be. So embodiment, I'm trying to be present without allowing it to really. To react. Excellent. Exactly. Yep. No. No. Exactly. Well, that's my my brand. Definitely. I think one of the things so like jump a bit to my to my history. So my dad was sick when I was from. So my my dad was diagnosed with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease when I was six.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:09:10) - And then he was sick until I was 12. And he was amazing. Like, I can't say enough positive things about him. I don't. So for those who aren't familiar with it, but it's a neurodegenerative disease, so your neurons and your muscles stop communicating, so your muscles atrophy. And so basically your brain stays as cognitively alert and, you know, highly functioning as it was previously, but your muscles and your body deteriorates. So as you can imagine, for the person, I mean, I have an experience but can be very frustrating, can be. Also, sadly, people make judgments. I mean, General, sadly, people make judgments, but they make judgments about you that you are intellectually, you know, less capable. Exactly. I mean, I can remember people talking to my dad, like very slowly and loudly. And again, I mean, it is what it is. It's what they were exposed to. Right. But and just kind of being like, oh, no, he can he could still like fully functioning and it is Right.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:10:19) - But he like never. I don't ever remembering him. Remember him complaining. He cried. Of course, he was very like connected to his sensitivity. But that really brought to my attention the importance of health. And so he this is something that's 10% of it is is familial, but there's nothing that they know of. It's not like he was a smoker or a drinker, neither. Actually. He was very healthy, ate healthily, grew up on a farm, blah, blah, blah. So it's something that popped into my mind. Just the importance of staying healthy, um, to prevent. Being sick, right. Even though there was nothing he could do. And then I also was for a lot of reasons, but some of it probably because of not knowing how to deal with how my body felt and emotions and stuff, and dealing with the trauma was bulimic when I was in college. And so one of the things that I learned through that process, aside from changing the way literally changing my thought patterns, which is I think is incredibly important and through through my faith in a lot of other things, but also what my body needs to stay healthy.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:11:29) - And so again, because of because I'm incredibly like hyper, my brain's always going. It's like I'm very active already. If I don't feed it frequently, literally give myself nutrients frequently, like when I put it into a state where I'm hungry, It's just not a good, good state for me. So I learned I needed to be like eating frequently. I knew I learned I needed to be exercising to keep my brain healthy, to keep those endorphins, to keep those various pieces. And I've recently learned that I just really can't do alcohol. So a lot of those things because a big portion because the ADHD and also just the dopamine genic and all those things. Um, so I've learned, I think and goes back to that embodiment, right? Like what do I need to be at my optimal and what do I need to both cognitively but also emotionally, physically etcetera. And so I learned pretty young, I'd say, when I was in my 20s that like, this is something I have to do to stay healthy.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:12:35) - So it doesn't mean I don't fall into times when I don't want to or when it's cloudy out. Exactly. But I just know for me to be on my best game. Yeah, I have to. So. But I also learned I can't make it a perfection thing. It's not about having to do it every day a week. It's not about having to look this way. It's not about blah, blah, blah. It's about what's healthy for me and the right kind of boundaries, if you will, around that. I do. I have so I do. I have my like, what is it aromas that flow through. I have one of those ones that goes off the diffuser that goes off automatically. Exactly. Ooh, love it for energy. Yeah, so have that. And then I always have quiet time first thing in the morning with the dog. So I make my matcha. I have my lemon and ginger water, like, just soak it in that overnight or whatever. Actually, I have a little remnants of a tear in my cup.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:13:47) - Um, little citrus zing. I make my matcha, and then I have, like, quiet time, prayer, journaling, and then I go for a walk with the dogs. Yeah. So, again, to try to calm because obviously, like, cortisol is going first thing in the morning, there's like all kinds of brain stuff happening to really like set the intention for the day, if you will. And then so prayer and journaling really helps me with that. Actually walk. Yep, definitely. Dogs help with that adopted dog. I just actually she said that in the. Yep. Exactly. No, no, definitely. And it's so mean. There's so many studies that show like getting the natural light in the morning, even if through clouds and like moving in the morning, delaying slightly your caffeine intake, like all of those things. I'm a huge fan of Andrew Huberman as well, so. The whole science base. She speaks the language. Yeah. No. As you may tell by the accent.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:15:09) - So I like to say I'm a calculated risk taker. Um, I've. Yes. This is the 16th city I've lived in. And it is? Yes. And actually, it's the. So I'm just coming up on three years, which is actually the longest I've been in a city. Oof! Probably since New York, but even New York was like just coming up on three years. So anyway, um. It is. It is. Yeah. And like, you know, obviously you meet new people every time you go to a new city and like, new job. I've also had lots of jobs and. Yeah, I mean, like to say that that gives me perspective and I can, you know, then make connections across the strategy side of things. But so I lived in Salamanca, which is like northwest of Madrid when I like literally 20 years ago, like right now I turned 21 in Salamanca and I'm turning 41 in. What is it today? Oh, 16 days. So anyway, I lived here and I loved Spain.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:16:24) - Absolutely loved Spain. Love the culture, Love the juxtaposition to the American pace of life and all of those other things and values, etcetera. And so decided I'm not sure it was quite consciously, but maybe consciously that I wanted to live in Europe again or wanted to live outside of the US. And definitely. And so my and I didn't. So my dad's grandmother was an orphan and we believe she was from Colombia, like Bogota region. We don't know exactly because she was an orphan in New York, but she was an orphan like a bit later, like six or something like that anyway. So there's something I like to think there's something in my blood that has, like the Spanish, the Latin, whatever. It's inspiring. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and so I just. Yeah, although obviously South America is different than Spain. Don't get me wrong, but, um, but I do. I love the language. Didn't grow up speaking Spanish. Sadly, my grandfather told my grandmother to pretend she was French because of biases.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:17:27) - So my last name is actually both French and Spanish. It means the same thing. Duke. So anyway, I just really, really loved that the culture. And so I tried a couple times to come to Europe or to go to South America, but because I didn't grow up with a lot of money, I had to start paying back. I had a had like a full academic scholarship, but had to pay for like how I like living expenses or whatever, right, for Mercedes. So I had to start, you know, sadly in the states, universities, insane. The costs. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. But anyway, that's another. Yeah, exactly. So I had to start paying back my loans right away. So I needed to be working and like blah blah, blah so that it wasn't I didn't have the same option to just kind of like pick up and go and figure something out and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I wanted to to build a career.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:18:21) - So I the only way really for me to get abroad, at least within my mindspace at that time, was to find a job to move me there. And so it's or there being Europe, it's quite challenging to get a visa until you're specialized. And so especially as I believed I was at every age of my life at 22 and 25 and even 30, um, there it was really hard to get a visa until I actually specialized in artificial intelligence. And then at that point it was a specialized skill. But still the a lot of the countries like Spain, Italy, Greece, even South America where I was working, weren't sponsoring visas. And I was really just starting to proliferate into some of those countries. I would say, you know, with obviously ChatGPT in the LMS, it's becoming even more of a key player, if you will. But so I moved to London about now it's about five and a half years ago or so because that was where I got the offer and, and the visa and like the moving etcetera.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:19:29) - And so I had had an offer in. Amsterdam, London and like an option in Beijing, but ended up going to London because of just it was the felt like it was the right place and then. Yeah. Yeah. And because they actually I mean, I know people are gonna argue with me about this, but London, as far as I was a bit ahead of a lot of the other cities in and countries. Well yeah in Europe. So it was a place where there were big companies doing AI, they had some headquarters and they could, you know, they wanted people who had experience in any place. So yeah. And then. Yeah. So I was there for two and a half years and I actually thought I was going to stay longer, but. Probably because of a biased system, heaven forbid. But I ended up just kind of deciding, okay, this is like a pretty clear that London is not where I need to be and not where what I felt like God was calling me to.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:20:33) - And so I was like, okay, I'm going to move to Barcelona. So yeah, exactly. So I knew I wanted more sun because I like vitamin D heavily important to me and I wanted the culture more of the Mediterranean. I wanted something was a bit more different from the United States, and the UK still has a fair amount of similarities. Exactly. I mean, the language, also the pace and kind of the value system from from my perspective, what I've experienced. And so I'd actually never been to Barcelona before. I decided I was going to move here and my mom was like, I know exactly my it's my mom's favorite city. And actually, ironically, I'm sitting in my parent's flat right now because they're in the US. They live three floors above me. So yeah, yeah. This mom, part of my mom is Dutch. So that's why we have this little Dutch doll over here. And so. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Actually, she's got her little Dutch shoes.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:21:41) - The wooden shoes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, so I just was like, okay, I'm gonna move. And then I was really blessed. It was, um. Interview Like in the negotiating an offer from Changing Health, which is actually a company out of Newcastle. And I was like, Guys love the company, really feel like this is a great fit, you know they love me and said but not doing it from Newcastle. So nothing against Newcastle just wasn't the right sunshine for me and. Yeah. Yes. And I'm just I'm a big city person. I love big cities. And, you know, also with the boredom and keeping things going, etcetera. So I was like like would love to join the company, actually. Did you know talent? There's a lot of great tech and talent in Barcelona and it's less expensive than the UK. And so they were like and that's. Yeah. Yeah. Who? Oh. Yeah. Yeah, I think. Man, it's an interesting one.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:23:04) - Um. Man, literally, that's like, what? It's mostly. Um. Yeah. Okay? Yes. I think so in. So I started my own company about a year and a half ago. I've been in. Oh, yeah, Yeah. So it's called Elm Health. It's helping people make healthier choices for themselves and the environment app. Just finishing up the back end, we're using we're actually working on fine tuning slash using embeddings for an LM, which is why it's been delayed slightly. But it helps uses AI to help people choose healthier for themselves and then also for the environment, starting with restaurants. So like I mentioned before, I'm super passionate about our health, but I'm also really passionate about the environmental, health and behavior change and the, you know, master's focus on behavior change. And so I started my own company a year and a half ago, but I've been in the tech sector. Gosh, I mean, really since I graduated from university. So, you know, close to 20 years ago.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:24:20) - And I worked a big so Amazon, Facebook slash meta Capital One, Accenture, blah, blah, blah. I've worked at Scale up Babylon Health. Um, I've worked at more startup phase venture there in the computer vision space as well as changing health and but I'd never started my own thing and I knew I wanted to start my own thing. Um, and so I dabble. You know, I've worked with VCs, I've presented the boards, blah, blah, blah, all that. Prickly. Yes, but I thought it was going to be different. I don't know why. I'm just an optimist at heart and I just don't understand why people don't look at the facts. So I thought, Yeah, I know, I know. I know silly. I know. I understand it. Like under obviously I understand biases, I understand how they work, etcetera. But for some reason I thought, okay, people in this area, obviously. Exactly. Or at least they're trying to work on them for the love of God.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:25:30) - Yeah. Geez. Heaven forbid. And again, we're. We all have biases. We don't need to be ashamed that we have biases. We need to be ashamed if we don't look at them and address them. They don't be ashamed. They all exist. We all do. We can try to pretend that we don't have them, and then we're lying to ourselves and everyone else. So I had hoped, right. That things were different, that someone who has two degrees from Johns Hopkins and who's worked in AI for the last ten years and who has clearly proven they know how to build teams and deploy products and blah, blah, blah, wouldn't need to prove themselves again because quite honestly, I'm 41. I'm pretty sick of proving myself. But that just wasn't the case. And there's a lot of barriers against. All different types of people. It's not just women, but. Not having the right connections, not having just income or a livelihood that you can sit around on and, you know, build and take the risk.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:26:32) - Not having a partner or extended family or whatever, who can bear that risk if you, you know, happen to fit. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And exactly. Exactly. So I learned a ton got pretty frustrated in the process and. Ultimately decided, okay, I'm just going to have to like live on my savings, um, and build it myself because especially with about a year ago when the markets really switched, etcetera, um, that that was really the only way as a, as a female in particular, but someone who hasn't built their own company previously, who isn't a white male engineer. I'm not saying all white male engineers have it easy and that they get it too. But there is a an additional barrier. And quite honestly, being smarter than most of the people in the room and sometimes and sometimes being more attractive than them to. Um, sadly. Uh huh. So sadly, I've had not very great experiences with some of those too. Um, some of that. Yeah, I think so.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:28:07) - I see a very different and again, this is I'm saying from my perspective and from a few other women who I know who've had similar perspectives. I do think that there's an age difference thing. Because I think those who. Those who are a bit older than I am had to fight really hard to get one seat at the table. And so there was only one seat ever. I mean, I can actually remember at Amazon once I had a woman tell me I wasn't allowed to sit at the table. I had to sit behind. Um. She wasn't the only. Yeah. Mean, she also told me I wasn't allowed to wear heels because she didn't want me to be taller than her, so. Yeah, Yeah. Anyway, so she was, interestingly enough, in that age bracket, um, I think and she was from like, from not this was in America when was at, when I was there, but she was from a different country. Um, she, she was an engineer.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:29:09) - She had fought right. She had fought to be at the table. She was a director level. Like, I'm not just diminishing her fight at all or the crap that she went through at all. And I'm trying to empathize with her reasoning of why she's responding and the reasoning of why some of these women responded the way that they did, because there was never they it was a competition, always, right? It was a and not all women in this bracket are the way there's a woman named Zoe who's at a who's amazing and just so inclusive and so willing to help. So there's but to have a bias or a stereotype, I think there's a lot of the kind of scarcity mindset, sadly, that even if we don't want to have it, our biases again still exist. And so there's also a thing where I've never been married, I don't have children, I look younger than I am. There's also a bias to again, to that. Um, so there's. I've actually had more, more success with like more of the the women who are a bit younger and who are in the area who haven't come up, I think as much against that.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:30:26) - They've come up with their own issues, don't get me wrong, I'll come up around. But who haven't had as much of the like I can only be this. And the reality is there are women VCs, which is amazing, but women still get 1.9% of investment. And so I can't tell you how many men have said to me, Oh, but it's easier for you. It's easier for you because there's women only funds and there's there's a requirement of women to be on boards. Um, excuse me. That's what. Oh, I get. I will. Because it's not my opinion. You can argue with me all you want at the end of the day, I know I'm right. Cause I'm looking at the data. I didn't create this data. The data, it says actually, last year it went down the. The percentage that that women get. And it's not because less women are funding startups. That's not that doesn't actually, you know, create the the distance. But anyway, so, um.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:31:23) - Capitalism. Um. So. I think we. A few players like Power in general, have too much power and not enough knowledge. Um, and we actually we being the system. Expects, if you will. Them to not be using biases on their own to make decisions, expects them to have knowledge in an abundance of spaces where they just can't possibly um, and then to make decisions that are not based on archaic patterns, but based on actual data and patterns and like. Understanding how someone can speak in a way that might be different or who has a different background or who looks different, who has different systems. Exactly all of those things that don't fit the pattern, but the pattern is relatively small. So VC investment is not this like long. It hasn't been around for hundreds of years, right? It is the advent. Exactly relatively new. It's even more new in Europe than it is in the US. And so, you know, people are making decisions based on startups that have really not existed for all that long.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:32:56) - Mean Yes, businesses, small businesses of course, that have been around for ages and ages, but they're based on and then subsequently what are the things we see in the media? We see white male engineers who are heterosexual and who, you know, behave in a way that we. Understand, for lack of a better term or try to understand. Exactly. Exactly. American and mostly American, by the way. Mostly Western. So it's like. Mean if you look at the top, this is always makes me frustrated. But if you look at the people even who are talking to Congress and talking to parliament, they're talking to the leaders of these major tech firms that guess what? The majority are American, Indian of Indian descent, like most of them, live in the US or, you know, we're educated in the US or South African, right, in one particular instance. But we're asking a very, very small, select few who don't have experiences of the world to kind of determine what the norms are and the patterns, etcetera.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:34:04) - And that's just not. A reality. Exactly. Yeah. And understand the biases. All the way from the inception, right. I mean, think one of the thing they say like, oh, but look at the successes. And it's like, well, yeah, but the success is exist in the structure that exists. Yeah. Like a. Yeah, like, of course. Yeah. Just like we're going back to the how emotions are made look like when they say like, oh, anybody can bootstrap themselves and come out of, you know, poverty and and history of slavery. Have you looked at the like, the miles and miles that people are behind just from being born? Like there's not an even playing field? Yeah, you can't say apples and apples, oranges and oranges. It's just not. Yeah, it's not a. You. Hello. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. And. And I think the when unfortunately, the the, you know, the human mechanism, if you will, that we.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:36:08) - And what we do is protect and we go around folks that we understand that we don't feel threatened by that are like us. Right? It's that's the way that we are. But I think, again, this goes back to there was a responsibility, particularly on, I say on myself, but also on on other people who have benefited from. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And like to understand that and to work against behaving in that way. And so. Yeah, I'm. Oh, golly. So this is a space where. Yeah. No, go ahead. Yeah, Yeah. No, no, no worries. Go. Okay. Yep. Exactly. Super hard. So it's interesting. I think this is I'm a big believer that, like, we all have a responsibility, kind of like I was saying, right? We all have a responsibility. And I really feel like I have an interesting perspective because I've worked in I, um, I grew up without a lot of resources, but two amazing parents and like have the intellectual capacity and the time to dive into this.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:38:08) - So I read so much about all these various things to try to stay up to date on the new, different trainings. I've worked across a variety of different models, so natural language processing, computer vision. So an LLM is based on neural networks which using natural language processing basically. So for done neural networks, I've worked on a variety of graphs, all kinds of different, different AI. Um, and the not getting bored and jumping from job to job. Um, and so have an interesting kind of view, certainly not global, but a view of a variety of different spaces. I think my biggest concern around all of this is where it is actually driving us towards as a human race. And I believe a lot of that started with social media and that and for people who don't fully know, social media uses artificial intelligence. Right? So that's how your recommendation engines work. That's how your newsfeed is tailored for you. That's how your notifications. All of that is is based on social media and AI is normally optimized for something.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:39:29) - So like what's the objective of the model, right? And so. Because when you spend money. Exactly. Because again, capitalism and markets and it's a company. Exactly. And they have pressure from shareholders, which, you know, is a lot of the populist. Exactly. So anyway. So I think I'm concerned about how these what these models are optimized to do. And so when they are primarily and there are open source models, don't get me wrong, when they are primarily driven by private companies that have a. Objective to grow, to quickly iterate and they don't have the same objective to be sustainable. They don't have the same incentive to make sure exactly, to make sure that everything that is going out there is not having a negative consequence. One of the things I put out recently to to do a and I'm going to do some posts on is like, what did we learn or what should we have learned from social media and the rapid integration that it had in society and the lack of foresight, preparedness, intervention That would be exactly that happened in 20 years, by the way.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:41:13) - What do we need to learn from that? Because so many people say, oh, it's like the printing press. It's not like the printing press. The printing press was a massive machine that weighed hundreds of pounds. You had to like create them with iron. Or you can run on your like little tiny. Basically, you are running on your phone on edge computing it. It does not need additional other than, of course, the ability to run the models, train the models, etcetera, you know, GPUs, etcetera. You can proliferate this technology in seconds. It doesn't require the construction of printing presses. Right. So. Exactly. Exactly. Well, and actually on your as long as you have the software on your phone. So your face recognition is is running on your phone. Right. It's called it's called edge computing. So basically my concern. So all of this stuff happened in literally a span of 20 years and we can look at the negative consequences of had. And we've only started to just brush the negative consequences that social media has had.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:42:22) - We have to look at what happened there and how do we make sure that right now we start doing something like we should have started literally when social media started to think about how AI is going to impact to prepare society. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But we're going you know, they talk about like there's this whole like, what is it? Race to the bottom? But we have to look again at human behavior like we are inherently. I'm going to say lazy. And some people are like. Okay. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, we the main like one of the big things for for AI is like efficiency optimization, right? Like we're building businesses to try to do things faster with less effort, shorter, less money, blah, blah, blah. And of course, again, I'm not saying there aren't benefits that come from that, but. Totally. Totally. Exactly. And I'm not opposed to AI at all. I work, I've worked in it.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:43:50) - I think there's so many amazing opportunities. I'm also understand that there are good things that came from more people having access to have a voice to media, you know, social media connections, blah blah, blah. There's. Berkeley. Exactly. And being globalisation around democracy and women's rights and like all those things. Yeah, great things like proliferation of knowledge. Amazing. But there's unintended consequences that come along with progress. I mean, we can see that everywhere, right? And I think it's those unintended consequences that don't get enough time or thought. And again, the people who are driving the technology forward are not incentivized to think about that, nor are they often diverse. So mean. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Probably more than that. I remember. So when I worked for for Facebook, I remember I had flew from so I was on their community integrity team, which is like working to keep people safe. And so I had flown from London to to the US to San Francisco. Um, and I was, I think it was there for like an hour.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:45:17) - Sorry, horrible for the environment. I know so bad for the environment. But I was walking around the rooftop there. They have a green roof and there's, you know, of course, I mean this was geez Louise three years ago, but it was all the little juice shot. So like Ginger and Diane and Rick and Roberto, and there's like a juice bar in there, you know, free everything, blah, blah, blah. And I remember calling my mom and being like, mom. These people are literally and I was one of them. So these people are literally deciding what the entire world. 3 billion people. Can see for news, and they are so unaware of what the rest of the world is like. It was like being in a bubble, a utopian bubble. And I was just like, Oh my gosh, this is literally the all of these people. And again, I was there are deciding they literally make the rules for what can and cannot be. Yes. And Google has very similar.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:46:26) - And like. Is that I don't want to live in that world where I am, where the world is passively accepting what a small minority decides is right or wrong, and ultimately, I believe is leading to. Intellect, stagnation to a total lack of health in so many facets. Passive consumption with no critical thought. Yeah. So, I mean, I've only lived for 41 years, so. Can't speak. Can't speak for the time, you know, prior to this. Yes, please. Yeah. Yep. So. 100%. But if you think about so this is some people are going to disagree with me. And I know this is like a bit controversial, far fetched. I. I believe if you think about as someone who's in power and again, not all of these are like conscious thoughts. If you think about someone who's in power that wants to maintain power because, again, human nature, this is how we are. You know, I want what I want all these resources for myself, right? Unless I.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:48:24) - Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. True. And I do think there are some differences in how women, men and, you know, different fluctuations on on that scale approach things, you know, around like both gender identity but also hormonal and etcetera. So when if you were like, hey, I'm in power and I want to keep my power and people are starting to kind of get up to my balance, I'm not sure about all these women. I'm not sure about these minorities. What would you want to do? You'd want to keep them unhealthy so you'd put a bunch of chemicals in their food. You'd want to keep them not moving. Another unhealthy is by sitting in front of a screen. You'd want to keep them away from each other because actually having real physical dialogue and the way you behave online is not the same way you believe in. You behave in person or it's not mean. You can look at tons of studies about this. It's not. And you would probably want to keep them just angry in general.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:49:31) - And how would you do that? You would polarize. And what are we what are we doing as. What are governments doing? They're keeping polarization. And so instead of actually thinking about, hey, maybe I should think about the system I'm living in, maybe I should think about the toxicity. Don't have my phone with me because I didn't want to be distracted. Then I'm getting from this, I'm yelling at the person across from me because then I can't yell at the actual system and I can't actually make any change because all I'm doing is spending my energy. I'm exhausted, I don't have any energy, and I'm spending my energy being angry at the person that I should actually work with to try to change the structure and the system. But we But what are we get into? We get into a passive consumption of content that aligns to what we already believe. Because guess what? That will keep us on the platform. That's what keeps us buying. That's what keeps us spending. We consume, we consume.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:50:32) - You know, whether it's clothing, food, content that's passive. And we don't. We're known. So we don't actually think so. In the book with the with my interns like they are, these are university students. That's what they're doing, you know, the internship. And some of them said to me, Wow, I've never thought about where these studies come from. Hmm. I've never thought about where the information I'm getting is coming from. I forgot that I like to read. And I as an example. This is such a horrible example. I hate even giving it. But I had so I had met with them all in person and then I was like, okay, we're going to meet on Tuesdays in the afternoon, like 230, because that's when you don't have class. Well, you know, I'll come to near your class. We'll get together. You know, we discussed the book in person. I buy the, you know, coffee or beer or whatever they want and we chat, right? So I'm like, I'll send you guys a invite.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:51:46) - So it's only invite. I get two messages. One says the invite says 4:30 a.m.. Is this the time we're supposed to meet? I was like, Um, your calendar is probably still on Mountain Standard Time. Then. Then I get a screenshot where it says 6:30 a.m. EDT. No, sorry. 8:30 a.m. EDT. And they say to me. Is this the time you want us to meet? Now, this has nothing to do with my ego, but I am the founder of the company. You are working for me. And you spent and again, it doesn't matter. That is not the point. The point is. Thinking. It says EDT in the picture you sent me. Taking. And again, I understand not I'm not I'm not saying everyone has to be a genius. This has nothing to do with it. It's the taking the time to process and to critically think and to problem solve. And we've lost that. We've lost the and I get it. I have ADHD. I'm sometimes I ask silly questions.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:53:11) - It's not that. It's that like stopping and thinking before we said stopping and thinking when we're taking in something that, hey, you know what? This might not be right. What was the sample size in that study? What else have we looked at? What is an opposing view on this particular area? 100%. What's the structure? So, for instance and again, I'm going to say something controversial, you know. Horowitz, who is part of the A to Z, A16z and as the precursor, I'm not a huge fan, so. Yes, I believe both white males in there like something who've had at least Horowitz's out of tech company before. So he has like knowledge in the tech sector. So, you know, um, writes a letter in contrast to the doom's people about I. Okay, so let's take a second to think about what his ulterior motives are. Shall we? What does background. What does he put money in? Billions of dollars, by the way. What's his incentive to keep on going and to make sure that nobody gives a crap in the eye goes everywhere? Oh, by the way, I think I just saw a post yesterday that said they're coming out with their own low.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:54:49) - I equally when Musk So let's go to the other side says we should pause for six months Let's take a thought about what Musk has in showing. Musk is behind. Most want to catch up in. LM And guess what he's doing while writing this letter? Starting on his own company, LMS, to get going faster. Shall we make? Because nobody wants because they have power, they can drown out the other voices. There's not enough mean if you look. So this is I'm starting this, uh, consortium, if you will, where we're calling it the black box, where we're starting to get people who actually look different into the conversation. Because if you look at the if you look at the people who are having this conversation. Don't want to like. And again, I don't have anything against white men. My brother's a white man. My dad was a white man. My brother actually works in finance. So, like, love them to death. This is not a a we don't want all Ashley's in the room either.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:56:00) - Yeah, it's not against white men, but if you look again, we don't want all Ashley's. First of all, nobody would get an edge or a word in the. That's right. Me too. I'd be like, Could you just shut up for a second? My love of God, and we don't need to. Exactly. And about diverse backgrounds, people who look different, who face different things. But 90% of the people that are talking to each other or at each other all look the same. And they're coming from education or capitalism or finance or whatever. Like that is not the only view the people advising the government again. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So. So I'll tell you what the the mission and vision are and then I'll their mission. It's really to. I want everyone to get back into the discussion and be intentional about where we're going as a society. I really feel like, especially with social media, but previously we've passively accepted what's been pressed upon us instead of actively, critically thinking about the implications of all of these things that are coming into our our world.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:57:34) - And again, it's not about being right or wrong. It's not about saying it's bad or it's good. It's about saying it's complicated and things are changing at a pace that is astronomical. We understand that. So let's intentionally direct where we go as a as a society so that we're not passively taking the decisions of a few that didn't really take into account the multitudes. And so part of it is getting diverse voices into saying what are like what are the areas that this is going to impact. And I would say all and what are the questions we really need to answer in those areas? And then how do we get people who are experts and who are knowledgeable in different spaces, not just from AI, but from all over, from from psychology philosophy, from education, from conflict, from law, economics, all of those? How do we get those diverse voices in a place where they can butt heads and they can have difficult conversations to try to answer those questions? And then how do we bring in everyone else into having their own discussions, debates and understanding? So it starts at like the conversations where we're calling them black box conversations where it's like closed door where you can say what you want to say.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (00:58:57) - But then there's a follow up conversation where we're really bringing the kind of takeaways from those and where people can then listen into those and be a part of those and then proliferate those down where more and more people are starting to have the discussions and then putting those recommendations, those insights back to the specific people that are either making policy, who are directing companies, who are creating organizations socially, who are saying, how do we set you know what, as we think about like an economy of more time, right, how do we make sure that people are actually doing things that benefit them and not just gluttony or passive consumption? Exactly.

Else Kramer (01:00:04) - Right. Yep. Yep.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:00:18) - Yeah, exactly. Ugly. Yep. Exactly. But we're. Oh, totally. But we're working to make them happy in a way that behooves us. We're working to make them healthy and happy through consumption and through fast cures. We're not looking at actually, hey, we've been making like engineering our fruits and vegetables for mass production and so that they don't die against, you know, bacteria or whatever infection We haven't even thought about how they taste.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:01:07) - We've been optimizing towards consuming and towards money and. Oh. Yeah. Looks amazing. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. Thing. It's. Every time I go back to the US, I get sick. And I have a few friends who have the same problem. Like every time they go. I had a horrible stomachache and I'm not eating fast food. That's not like coming. Yeah, the oils, all of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I'm. And loneliness. Right? Mean think that's the again mean we saw that I can't remember who I was reading I do this a lot because I've read like 20 things at the same time. And then I'm like, was it better or like, I don't know. But I read it. It wasn't my thought was read. I was reading something where they were talking about no, it was on a podcast. The woman was who? Oh, really? Really cool woman too. Got to look her up. I'll send it to you.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:03:02) - Yeah, I will. I'll send you. I can't remember her in there. Yeah, perfect. She was talking about how she had hoped that, like, during the pandemic, we would have learned, Hey, we actually need to be together. We need this physical touch stuff. Yeah, exactly. You can't actually get that through video. I mean, video is better than just like audio, but still, we need to touch. Um, and sadly, we didn't really learn that. We just went back to the systems, right? We went back to the default, we went back to the quick fixes right? And so. Yes. No, I agree. I agree. But our systems incentivize us to quickly and through consumption. Right. Get those hits that aren't lasting the same lasting. Right. And again, we can look at the actual effects and the perpetual effects of physical touch of time together of the energy. So even, you know, she talks about this, of course, in how emotions are made, but like there's a lot of other signs that show we the energy or whatever you want to call it, that we pass between each other is different.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:04:19) - Like that just doesn't happen through VR and AR it doesn't like you actually need a lot of the now there's some where you know the breathing you can get through the video but anyway, it's not the same. And the longevity of the of the effects is not the same either. And so interestingly, you know, as we get lonely, we look for more of these as we're not getting that right. We look for more of the quick fixes and then our brain becomes adapted and deficient and starts then looking for the more. I mean, you know, again, same thing with like the dopamine cycles with alcohol with a lot, you know, there's lots of things that we can show. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And you're right, that's how our brains are wired. But we also don't need that as much if we do the things that give us more of that equilibrium. Exactly which nature is a huge part of that. You know, relationships are a huge part of that. And I'm not saying, again, totally exactly music like and it doesn't mean that everybody's brain works the same.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:05:19) - That's not what we're saying, that there's not divergence in that. No, no, exactly. But there are things that we can. But that also means slowing down, being intentional, spending time in nature, getting away from consumption, getting away from devices, all of those things to actually be able to say, how do I feel? You know, what is the. Exactly. And it takes time, though. Know for sure. Oh, for sure. Sure. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. But why can't we? Because we don't need to teach rote memorization anymore. We have there's no like, we need to go. I think this is again, this goes back to what we were talking about with critical thinking in a lot of these other things, the traditional structure of school. It's great that we're trying to educate everyone. Like I don't want to go back to where only the you know, the whoever the the small percent of wealthy and mostly men. Right. Because women couldn't go to school.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:06:45) - Exactly. Our studying and having philosophical discussions or anything like that. That's not my point. But also educating in a way that's just about rote memorization. And everyone has to be the same and sits and, you know, it's certain. I mean, I first grade, I don't know if I told you the story, so I learned how. Okay. Okay. So. I learned how to read really early. I was like two and a half or so, right? And so in kindergarten, you were allowed to, like, run around. So and I was in Montessori. So it was. I was fine. Right? No problem. Then I get to first grade and I don't sit still. I love to talk. I love to make jokes. It's just, you know, they're not always funny, but, hey. And I'm reading chapter books and they're doing the alphabet. And so my school, my teacher, bless her, won't say her name because she was it was her like first or second year.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:07:42) - She literally sat me in the corner. And I would just read. Because I was. Otherwise I would talk too much. That's why. Because I was bored out of my mind. So she'd put and you know, it's great in math. So like it was like, okay, go to the corner. You sit in the corner, actually. Right? Which first of all tells you you're not like everybody else. You're weird, You know? Exactly. Exactly. You know how to function in normal society anyway. Yeah, exactly. It's which thank God my parents knew. So they go to, you know, whatever the teacher parent conference. And of course she talks too much blah, blah blah. We got I got that for my whole life. I still get it. And my parents were like, well, you know, she's she's already, you know, she's been reading for years, like, sounds like she's in order. And the teacher goes, Oh, don't worry. By the end of first grade, they all even out.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:08:39) - And my parents were like. My parents were like, Oh my God, we don't want her to even out. Like what? You mean she's going to regress? She's going back to Holy Daughter album. What? And my both my parents were social workers. So of course, they're also like feeling for these poor kids who are behind and don't even know. They're, you know, don't, haven't had the bread, haven't been read to haven't had all this stuff. Right. But they were just like, this is not.

Else Kramer (01:09:07) - Good. We're like.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:09:29) - It's a hot. So it's interesting because I wrote a post yesterday in response to this guy that was talking about super intelligent and like, how do we define it? And I one of the things I explicitly remember as old actually older, I think when I was tutoring someone or in high school or something, I explicitly remember learning for the first time that I got things so much faster than other people and that there were things that other people would never grasp that that didn't take, that weren't hard for me because I was raised that we're all equal.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:10:06) - We all have an opportunity to, like, think and grow and love, and we're all valued, all children of God, which I still agree with, and I totally agree with that. And I do think that there's a huge amount of environmental factors that impact our ability to to be like, more intelligent than others. Right. Um, but I think we do a disservice to those who are naturally gifted, let's call them or, you know, intellectually on a different thing if we don't. Okay. I like that a lot. Who are naturally fast brain. If we don't also encourage that, we're also not allowing them to reach their potential and potentially causing frustrations and. Yeah. And causing frustrations and also isolation in the future. And one of the things that I really enjoyed now and not everybody loves this as like a, as someone who's who's fast brained, I do enjoy explaining things to people. So if we can find a way where I'm actually learning myself more and, and they always say like, if you teach it, you know it even more like, why could I not have sat next to a kid and read to them with them or what? Because I'm actually quite patient and rant on randomly enough.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:11:24) - I do really well with, um, I'm going to say intellectually disabled because I don't know the right term, but it's out of pure love folks, because I am very, very patient. So like, why couldn't you put me with someone? Why couldn't I explain maths? Because I love math and problem solving, right? Like, there's a balance between saying like, let's help both but not push either of them down or back for for one term. But education systems are not set up to do that. I have not seen the talk. Mhm. Yeah. Yes. So I read I was reading a piece yesterday from a PhD in physics, the same one that I was having in response to. And he had shown a he showed a chat that he had with be about transformers or transistors. One of the two I can remember and of course was more interested in understanding the transistor, like actually getting to the to see how to work, but took a step back and looked at it. Um, I think there's a lot of potential there once we obviously get rid of the errors on certain things but not, I think there's a potential.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:13:05) - We could cause potential frustration for people who learn better. Like me, I process through talking. So I mean, I love reading and I can like but actually processing thought I do much better through talking through it. So sometimes I say things that I don't actually believe. It's because I'm processing them, right? And I'm like, Oh, but what about this? What about that? Which sometimes gives me in trouble? It's not actually a belief. It's just me processing things. So like a learner like that, I already look crazy because I'm talking about to myself or the dog all the time anyway, but or someone else who actually really need someone to physically show them something or to to have a tangible asset to really understand something, blah, blah, blah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So I think there's a lot of potential. But again, it needs to be cared for and directed and we still need collaboration and and kind of so I see it having a place, certainly, but not in the context where it completely removes us from education together.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:14:11) - If that makes sense. I don't think isolation, right? For sure. And one person. Another thing Reid was saying, like, if we can actually teach, teach kids or teach people to ask better questions, is that what they really need to learn? And I do think asking questions is a part of it. But. Yeah, but also if we only have one answer as the answer, I don't think that also gets us to. We need to understand that answers are more complex than this is the answer. And that that interface in chat is a this is the answer explaining okay, here's the answer, but it's still not giving Joe and Juan and Juanita and Sherry and whoever. It's not showing there the way they're answering it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And hey, this is what we knew before, but this is what we know now and this is the progress of it. So just like that's a, you know, historical context. But yeah, so I think there's a lot of great again, there's tons of great pretension.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:15:37) - We just can't just throw it without thinking of all the other pieces that surround it. Well, I'd love for them to reach out. I want more opinions. I want more discussion. I want more. I want people to try to understand and have a thought around the implications and direct those implications and become a part of collectively deciding where we go instead of just, you know, logging on to Facebook without knowing that signing up for Facebook is going to change our entire society down the road. Right. So again, mean be a part of the discussion. There's so much going on right now in society and in the world. And of course, there always has been. But there's so many things that feel to me and I'm living in the middle of it, obviously, just so really, really foundational for how we move forward and that. That needs everyone involved. No matter where you fit on the speed of thinking, on the neurodiversity, on the race, on ethnicity, on the any everybody has a unique perspective to bring and we need to bring those.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:17:09) - Yeah. I'm bringing voice their voices, too. Right. And that again, think that's the that's what we want to do with the black box. And it's certainly what I think we, I feel as a person living at this time right now, it's my responsibility to make sure that I'm active in the direction, um, because I don't think I know now from social media and I think we should all be able to look after and act at the implications of social media and say like, Whoa. We have a responsibility to make sure that we're directing where is the best for everyone and where we want society to head, not just the best for. Five. Ten people. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You know, one of the things I realized with because I felt like I was especially when I was raising and like starting my company in such a I felt like, gosh, I'm just pressing against the power structure. I'm pressing against it, trying to change it.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:18:52) - I'm trying to change it, I'm trying to change it. But unfortunately, we either need a the entire masses to change it and kind of overtake that, or we have to become a part of the system like a bad way. You need to be calm. Someone who has the power to within change it, which is what a lot of these women have done. Right. They fought, they became in the power and now they're changing the system. And again. Exactly this is going to say and it's not. I'm just saying, from what I've seen, it's again, yeah my dad was did totally did that. And so I think the there I have a bit of a cognitive dissonance there because yes I mean a part of it is like okay, getting my start up, finishing it up and getting it out there and then having success with it so that I have that position where I can say, okay, I'm not even though I have all these credentials and I've worked at these places, I'm not just speaking from not knowing and here's the power that I have because I've done this right.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:19:56) - And yeah, you're right. In a system like capitalism and a system like humanity, money is the symbol of power and status. And so if you want to play in that game, you have to be in that game and ultimately have an influence and mean at the end of the day, like she talks about and we all know from psychology like money to construct, right? Money is basically a, like we said, a symbol of power. And so but to change the structure, to influence it, you need to be in that discussion and in that game. I'm not saying you make that your focal point and I'm not saying you keep the money that you you earn or whatever it may be, you can give it away you beyond where you're living, in which I'm a huge believer in. But until you have that to give power to others, through giving it away, through your voice, through whatever it may be. Um, disadvantage. Yeah. And again think that's the like whether that's a fair structure is kind of neither here nor there.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:20:57) - We exist in that structure right now. And so to influence that now, I would like to then influence that. That's not the structure we exist in in the future, right? But we do right now. So yeah, I think that's a. Yeah. Work from within it too. Exactly. Exactly. I'm very bad at being quiet, though. Very bad at being quiet. I don't. Yeah. No. Yay! They are just a gift. Yeah, I have two that are both adopted. One is just such a scaredy cat. Oh, ironic to call it a cat. And I don't think that's a that scared. But he's just so. So he has a lot of trauma. He's a, um, a mastiff and a and a German shepherd mix, and he's just. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, he's gorgeous. So if you. Depending on what picture you use, I have one with him and me. It's like my, my one on LinkedIn and stuff and his, one of his ears is always up.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:22:11) - So it just gives him this sweet, endearing factor as well. And then the other I adopted when she was eight and she's a beagle mix and she used to be, we think. So they got Dora, which is like a hunter. Um, and she is just so feisty. But I really wanted to adopt an older dog because I feel like older dogs deserve love and stability just as much as the pepperonis do. And, um, so she's just so funny because she's a beagle, so she's feisty, feisty, feisty and stubborn. But it's good because I'm stubborn. So we're like, Hey, who's in charge here? But also like a little cuddle bug and. And so sweet. So yeah, just I don't have children, but I have dogs. And I have to say they I definitely have our emotions connect in our, in our center, our body center, our energy, our all of those things. I think they give so much. And I do believe that they're balances, right? Just like they have that system of regulation and different things and that we can sense those across the two of us.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:23:20) - And so it's. Yeah. I love them. Don't think I could ever live without dogs again.

*Else Kramer * (01:23:30) - Yeah. Ooh.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:23:36) - So I think we might have talked about this when we chatted before. One of the things I had found challenging, depending on where I've lived, is finding people who are in the same. For lack of a better term, like headspace as I am. Um, not that I want everybody to think like me, but I do need people who can also be on that level. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I don't that's not like a requirement, but one of the things that I've just starting to get here in Barcelona more and more of because of after the pandemic, are folks who are kind of in that same what's called intensity passion area, fast speaking and etcetera. Um, and so I've gotten that through kind of like friends and friends and just meeting a bunch of people, finding where people are, are excited. And then I have, I'm really blessed to have a network of in particular women, but like a couple men too, I used to have only guy friends when I was younger.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:24:37) - And now as I've gotten older, it's interesting. I'm much more like strong women. Um, super switched on, as my one friend likes to say across the globe. So I do video chats or like walking chats with them because I know them very well in person already. So it's like it's, you know, we know we're on the same playing field, um, with at least one of them every week and probably every other because they're like same on the same like emotional but also intellectual and like passion areas and stuff. So that's become kind of like my that community side. And then like I said, I have my parents who live two floors above me and I have my church here as well in Barcelona. But I think it takes me longer. I meet people really easily and I connect with people really easily. But it takes me longer to find people who are on the same emotional maturity and depth of emotion as well from like whether it's having trauma or other things and the intensity. Exactly. And the same intellectual curiosity and plain too.

Ashley Duque Kienzle (01:25:43) - But once I find them, I tend to like. Bring want to connect them and get them into the same. Definitely. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, yes. So I'm happy to connect if like people want to reach out on LinkedIn or, um. Yeah. Love it. No. I know know in person one of these days. Thank you. Have a great rest of the day. Jo Jo. Bye. You too. By.