Episode 85 - Jay Aigner on Doing it All Artwork

Managing the Smart Mind

In this podcast, master certified coach, speaker and trainer Else Kramer shares strategies from her coaching practice for people with smart minds. This podcast is geared towards gifted adults - and the people who work with them. She discusses how to avoid bore-out and burnout, how to love your fast brain whilst accepting some of the challenges it may bring, and how to design a life that perfectly supports your smart mind. She also advocates for wider understanding and acceptance of giftedness, and neurodiversity in general. Else a.k.a. Coach Kramer works with people and companies from all over the world and is based in Rotterdam, the Netherlands. She has a degree in Philosophy from King's College London, built a successful business from scratch, loves LEGO, Japan and many more things. In addition to being gifted she's autistic, with a sprinkling of ADHD, and she loves to speak about neurodiversity and giftedness in the workplace. You can find her on Linkedin, or via her website, coachkramer.org.

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Managing the Smart Mind

Episode 85 - Jay Aigner on Doing it All

August 02, 2023 • Else Kramer • Season 1 • Episode 85

Hey smart humans, my inspiring smart guest on this Episode, Jay Aigner most definitely doesn’t stick to one thing!

Jay's life is a whirlwind of activities. He credits his upbringing in a rural area, where boredom was not an option, for instilling in him a constant need to find something to do.

His hobbies range from flying planes, which helps him overcome his fear of heights, to playing video games and cooking with his daughter.

He has founded and currently runs a multiple-million dollar business, JDAQA.com with over 60 employees across 3 hubs.

He has his own podcast - The First Customer - where he interviews founders about their business and how they got their first customer.

And he creates the most stunning astrological images.

So piloting. Ice Hockey. Astrophotography. Running a multi-million dollar business. Five kids - and a sixth one on the way. Oh, and there’s a dog too!

How is this even possible?

Well, you’re about to find out.

During our deep dive into entrepreneurship and keeping life interesting with a smart mind, we talk about things like:

the importance of sleep (yes! Jay still sleeps!)
trusting people
following your passions
the joy of giving
taking risks,
how to build communities
freedom
money

and much, much more. Oh - and we bust some goal myths along the way.

Buckle up because we go fast - and there is a ton to learn here!

Enjoy 90 minutes with Jay Aigner...

Show Notes

Find Jay on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayaigner/

Jay's Company Website: jdaqa.com

Jay's Incredible Astrophotography Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aignerastro/

The First Customer Podcast: https://www.firstcustomerpodcast.com/

Ready to learn how to Manage your Smart Mind? Then download my free 'Mapping Your Unique Brain' Workbook. Go to:
https://www.coachkramer.org/brainmap to get access.

Are you interested in working with me? Click here.

Come say hi on LinkedIn |Insta | Twitter | FB

Episode 85 - Jay Aigner on Doing it all

Else Kramer (00:00:02) - All right. Welcome to the Managing the Small Mind podcast. Jay and I forgot to ask how to pronounce your last name, so help me.

Jay Aigner (00:00:08) - Just pretend there's no I in it. So, Agar.

Else Kramer (00:00:11) - Agar. Amazing. Okay, so, Jay Hagner, what is your biggest frustration, would you say?

Jay Aigner (00:00:22) - Um, I would say it's probably my lack of discipline. I feel like I constantly struggle to whether it's diet or, you know, um, practicing certain things, meditation, which I've gotten better at. It's just I feel very frustrated sometimes with my lack of self accountability and lack of discipline. So this is.

Else Kramer (00:00:44) - So interesting because we're talking to the person who is built. I mean, don't know how many businesses and like this incredible, um, astrology photography platform, you know, build your own telescopes like, and you're telling me you're undisciplined.

Jay Aigner (00:01:00) - Yeah, It's interesting, right? Yeah. Five kids in one on the way. So it's maybe that's part of it is just I feel like I live in chaos all the time.

Jay Aigner (00:01:10) - Um, but it's kind of a good thing for me. Like, I feel like if I'm, if I felt like I was just like this, if I had everything dialed in, then what would I be doing? You know, you'd be super bored. And I wouldn't be constantly trying to learn new things and trying to improve things and try to, you know, be a better boss and a better husband and a better dad and all these different things. So, um, it's a good frustration, you know, constantly feel that, you know, some days I'll wake up, you know, my, my goal every day is 5:00 and some days I'll wake up at, you know, 520. I'll be so annoyed with myself. But it'll, you know, I'll go downstairs or get a better workout in I go, you know, I make sure that I make up for that time. And, um, yeah, it's certainly, it's a driver of things. I think that that feeling of not being perfect, which I know I can't be, but just trying to get as close as possible.

Else Kramer (00:01:58) - Yeah. Okay. So I would say this isn't actually a frustration at all, okay? It's just you trying to be better every day.

Jay Aigner (00:02:07) - It's your show, man. You can say whatever you all whatever you want. This is.

Else Kramer (00:02:12) - This. Is there another frustration or is this it?

Jay Aigner (00:02:16) - Another frustration.

Else Kramer (00:02:18) - Something that really pisses you off. To put it bluntly.

Jay Aigner (00:02:23) - Something that really pisses me off.

Else Kramer (00:02:26) - Like I'll give you an example to just give you some time to think like, yes. For me, what really pisses me off is like bureaucracy I have to deal with like, and in ways that just doesn't make sense. That just something happens to my brain and I want to go and kill someone, I think.

Jay Aigner (00:02:41) - Condescension.

Else Kramer (00:02:42) - Hmm.

Jay Aigner (00:02:42) - Interesting when people are condescending. Especially other people. I kind of learned to deal with it a little bit myself, but it's still super. Like I get very annoyed, very angry when you know, look, we're all just hairless. Monkeys like that have evolved and we're just like trying to figure this stuff out.

Jay Aigner (00:03:02) - Like, why doesn't matter what you do or who you are, like what you're wearing, like what you're wearing or like where you're what job you have, like to talk down to somebody or like, treat them like a lesser person has always made me very I feel like I'm getting angry just thinking about people who have done that. Um, so yeah, I think, I think being kind of sending is something that frustrates me very much because I don't, I mean, I understand it because it all kind of goes back to, you know, like an insecure thing. Like people are insecure, so they try to project like this big, you know, how cool they are and stuff. But yeah, um, yeah. Just frustrates me that people haven't quite gotten past that in their life yet. But you know, I can't control what other people do.

Else Kramer (00:03:41) - So yeah, fair enough. And I think with condescension, the part that I hate is like what people assume, right? It's just so stupid.

Else Kramer (00:03:50) - Yes.

Jay Aigner (00:03:51) - Yeah. Idiots. How are they? Look at us being condescending.

Else Kramer (00:03:55) - I know. So fun.

Jay Aigner (00:03:57) - It's so.

Else Kramer (00:03:58) - Fun. Listen, um, next card and this is. I can't believe I'm even asking you this because, I mean, the amount of things you do is kind of mind boggling to me. Even if you oversleep, like, 20 minutes. Um, how in the world do you do all the things you do? And then on this card is like boredom. How do you keep yourself from getting bored of that card away? Right?

Jay Aigner (00:04:22) - There's no.

Else Kramer (00:04:24) - Do you ever get bored for a second?

Jay Aigner (00:04:27) - I mean, you know, think everybody gets bored, even, you know, sitting at the airport or, you know, at the dentist office or something. Some place that I'm confined where I can't just get up and go find something to do. But, um. I think I grew I mean, I grew up in Virginia, which is a very rural. Some of it's very rural.

Jay Aigner (00:04:44) - And I didn't have the option of being bored. I didn't have the you know, if I was bored, my mom would say, I'll find something for you to do. And it was chores or whatever. And I, you know, I was lucky to grow up kind of in the middle of nowhere, and I would just wander out into the woods or wander off on my, like, little dirt bike or go do something and just but always find something to do. And I think that carried over. I, I don't know. I never I don't really know what true boredom feels like. And it's probably not a fair question for me because I have I have a bunch of kids. So like, yeah, it's impossible like and I and it is easy to take that for granted sometimes. Um, the fact that I have such a big network that I've created myself around me. But, um, yeah, I couldn't be bored if I tried. Maybe if I went on vacation and I was just like sitting on the beach and like, I just sat there for too long, I'd, you know, I'd be bored, but, um, yeah, just staying, just learning new things.

Else Kramer (00:05:41) - You're constantly learning new things, right?

Jay Aigner (00:05:43) - Like trying to. I'm trying to. And it doesn't matter if it's business or hobby stuff. I'm a huge hobby guy. I mean, look at you. You got a giant Lego thing behind you. I mean, we all like, I think, people. People who don't have hobbies. Going back to frustrations, I think that also frustrates me because it's like a weird thing to me. I don't understand how you don't have hobbies, like how do you not have a million things that you could be doing at any given time? Yeah. So yeah, I would say just just constantly trying to learn new things and just being excited about stuff. Otherwise, like, what are we doing? You know? So tell me.

Else Kramer (00:06:15) - About some of your hobbies.

Jay Aigner (00:06:17) - Well, you mentioned a couple of them, Astrophotography. Actually, my telescope is in my office right now because we just moved back home after being we moved out for six months to move my family out to renovate our house fully.

Jay Aigner (00:06:29) - So we just got back and. Wow. So I have a giant 115 millimeter telescope in my office right now, fully computerized. And like you said, the. I'm a community builder kind of guy, like I really enjoy. Which is weird because I feel like I'm an introvert, but I think it's, you know, growing up in the Internet gave me an ability to kind of be part of groups and networks and stuff that, you know, you didn't have to. And like I said, I grew up in the middle of nowhere, so I'm going to close. The neighbor was like a mile away. So, um, being able to create online groups was something I kind of figured out early on. And it started with like video game leagues, like where we just play and I mean, I'm still in the same league now. We've had the same guys for over ten years. We play the same, you know, every year the game comes out, we download, we all play together.

Jay Aigner (00:07:14) - And I did the same thing with Astrophotography. Um, I do ice hockey. I haven't I didn't play in the last the last season, but we did learn to play.

Else Kramer (00:07:23) - I'm guessing you're no longer Virginia if you're playing.

Jay Aigner (00:07:25) - I'm not. I'm not so we didn't so my all my kids play ice hockey and my wife and my oldest son or my middle son who's ten con me into doing learn to play adult hockey because I'd never I didn't know how to skate. I didn't know how to play hockey. And whatever. So a bunch of dads from my son's hockey team went and did this together and my brother in law does it now. So we all kind of go out and just play in this like very casual men's league in the evenings on Wednesdays. Um, it's been a big. Uh. Tinker with Arduino. Stuff like the home automation stuff have always found a lot of and I swear I invented the Bluetooth speaker football before it became popular. I had a working prototype and it was a Nerf ball and I had two holes connected with speakers and a Bluetooth arduino in there.

Jay Aigner (00:08:16) - And like they took it out and the kids loved it and I didn't know what to do with it. And then like a year later, Rob Gronkowski, like a really famous NFL player, came out with a branded version of a Bluetooth speaker football and it took off and became this big thing. So I have a bone to pick with. Rob Gronkowski.

Else Kramer (00:08:31) - Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:08:33) - But that and just constantly like doing programming stuff like I'd love to do little projects and bots and stuff. You know, ChatGPT obviously makes it a little bit easier now because I went to school to make video games and I don't get to do that for my job. Um, but I, you know, I like to make little Python bots and do stuff just programmatically. The business. I consider a hobby podcasting. I consider a hobby, a business, a hobby. Like there's things to the business, like sales and marketing, like methods and like learning different things about how to sell stuff, how to create content in a way that your target customer can digest, I find is interesting.

Jay Aigner (00:09:10) - Um, the podcast. Um, yeah, a lot of stuff, just a lot of different. I'm working on my pilot's license. Like I literally think every was so close. I was like, it was right to the end of getting it. And then my daughter was born, my youngest daughter, who's a year now. Um, so I put that on hold. But I think every day, maybe five times I think about having to get back and just finish my written tests, finish my check, right. And getting my pilot's license because that's one of my most favorite things in the world. You feel like you feel like a right brother. It's insane. Like, I've got I've done my long cross country. It's called a long cross country, which is really just like I think it's 50 nautical miles between airports. But flying by yourself, like over, you know, flocks of birds and stuff, it's like the wildest. Like, it's just, um, you know, a very small percentage of humans have actually got to, like, do that.

Jay Aigner (00:10:01) - And I feel very fortunate when I'm up there.

Else Kramer (00:10:02) - So the closest I've got is like being in a Cessna, which I mean took some adjustment. I was like, Wow, this is like a cookie tin that we're going to step into.

Jay Aigner (00:10:13) - I'm not a heights guy, though. I hate heights and I'm terrified I don't ride roller coasters. That thing behind you is giving me anxiety. Yeah, I don't I don't do roller coasters. I don't do any of that stuff. But when I'm flying that plane, it all goes away. And maybe it's control. Maybe the control thing, I don't know. But like, I can look down, you know, 5000ft and I'm like, you're telling me, cool. I'm. I'm in control. Um, you know, doing stall practice, which is pretty wild. Where you, like, literally sounds fun. 65, drop it down to 65 knots. You. There's two different types, but the one that's really fun is to jam the throttle all the way in and pull up and you go straight up until you hear the stall horn and it drops because it stalls.

Jay Aigner (00:10:56) - You have to recover. Just practice for if you're, you know, in certain situations where you have to recover from that. So, uh, yeah, not, not board games too. I get video game time and every now and again I got something last night. My daughter came in. She was like, You never play this anymore. See what she's like, This is great. So I was playing little Xbox last night as well, so, um, yeah. And then cooking. I think my daughter loves to cook my seven year old daughter, so we cook. So.

Else Kramer (00:11:22) - Okay. So I think some listeners may be thinking, does this guy sleep?

Jay Aigner (00:11:27) - I sleep a lot. I love to sleep.

Else Kramer (00:11:30) - So how do you do it? How do you do all these things?

Jay Aigner (00:11:34) - I mean, I don't do them all in the same day, but good to know. That would be a wild day. That'd be a fun day. Yes. That was like when I shot. I did a.

Jay Aigner (00:11:44) - I did a solar shoot. A lunar shoot. And a deep sky shoot all in the same day, which is like pretty it's all separate configurations of my telescope and it's like it was like a cool thing. I just had thought of one day I was like, I'll just get a picture of each one of these things, kind of like and represent them all together. Um, yeah, I sleep, I go to bed. Well, now that I started getting up early, I mean, there's a couple of years ago I started getting up early, but I'll, if I can be in bed by nine, 930.

Else Kramer (00:12:14) - Mm. Oh, so you do get some sleep.

Jay Aigner (00:12:16) - Sleep by 10:00.

Else Kramer (00:12:18) - Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:12:19) - You steal it back in the morning. Yeah. There's nobody around. Yeah. Everybody's sleeping. My, oh my. I said let's say before my gremlins wake up, you know, before my gremlins come downstairs, I can get my workout in. I can get a little work done. Um, yeah, I get plenty of sleep.

Jay Aigner (00:12:35) - And if I don't them, that's it.

Else Kramer (00:12:37) - Yeah. Yeah. And I love that time in the morning when there's nobody else up and it's just nice. It's the best.

Jay Aigner (00:12:43) - It feels like. It just. It's so nice. It's so nice taking the dog for a walk when there's like, it's like six in the morning and there's nobody. It's, it's not hot. Yeah. In the summertime it's beautiful.

Else Kramer (00:12:53) - But walk me back just a little bit like, how did this all start? Like, what was your first business like?

Jay Aigner (00:13:02) - I mean, my first real business. What I'm saying is my first business was my mom did an advertising agency. She's always kind of been an entrepreneur. And when. Back when the the World Wide Web first came around. People wanted websites and she was doing advertising and she didn't know how to do websites. So I was kind of just figuring out how to do websites and I started doing them for her customers and, you know, making $1,200 for a website when you're like 13, 12, 13 was a pretty.

Else Kramer (00:13:33) - Neat.

Jay Aigner (00:13:33) - Huge deal for me. You know, especially back in like the 90s, which, you know, whatever that would be today. But um, yeah, that was probably my first one. And then it kind of took, I'm going to say hiatus, but like, you know, life happened. I turned to a teenager and started chasing other things than money and then, um, you know, went to college, did the job thing, the regular job thing. Oh, I did. And I did. Speaking of community, um, I was a huge fan of these text based role playing games online. Yeah. Talk about being a nerd. Yeah, In my basement, I literally hosted a there was a Linux server in my basement that people could log into, and it was a full text based MMO, right? So people would get on, they could log in to interact with each other, they could steal stuff, they could build these characters up, they could do all these things.

Jay Aigner (00:14:24) - I did that for years. Um, and I did that kind of during my, my regular career. And then, um, I think we had like a second, maybe our second kid was on the way.

Else Kramer (00:14:34) - And what was your regular career?

Jay Aigner (00:14:37) - My regular career was a game tester, so I went I went to school to be a game. I want to be a game designer. So I went down to Florida. I went to Full Sail grade school. Many more programming to teach you how to be a programmer, which was cool and love that. And then but realized I wasn't like a great program. Like I realized I was good, but not like I realized I'd probably like not love being one for my job. And I got bailed out. I was I was down there. And it happened that a company in Pennsylvania was hiring for game testers from that school. And I was like, Wow, this is kind of a cool thing. And I don't know if you guys have them over there, but they had these touchscreen bar games like on the counter tops of the bars.

Jay Aigner (00:15:16) - They'd have these things called mega touch machines like photo hunt and all these different like games that you'd have on it. And that's the that's a company I work for and I got to do game design for them eventually. And I worked there for five, 6 or 7 years doing just quality assurance testing stuff like testing hardware, testing the software. Um. And then I got an offer to go to a big medical software company and I didn't want to do it at all, but I was making like 50 grand a year. My wife's good. Another kid on the way. You should probably check it out. And I left. I was there for about a year and it was the worst. It was the worst. It was soul crushing. Like, people would walk into that place and walk out like zombies. It was just like a big cube farm. And it was a great experience for me because I was like, I never want to do this again in my exactly right.

Else Kramer (00:16:02) - Now, you know what? You really, really, really do not want.

Else Kramer (00:16:04) - Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:16:05) - My God. And I got again, I got bailed out. I was at my desk and I had a desk phone that I didn't even know it worked. I didn't even know there was a real I didn't even know was a real phone. It rang one day and this guy was like, Hey, I'm a headhunter. Would you like to come interview at a startup company that does internet of things like automation stuff? I'm like, Hell yeah.

Else Kramer (00:16:21) - Like, are you kidding me?

Jay Aigner (00:16:22) - It sounds great.

Else Kramer (00:16:23) - And remember me out of here.

Jay Aigner (00:16:25) - Out of this place. And so then I bounced around a bunch of different startup kind of companies doing testing and while I was doing that. My wife was a nurse overnight and I was like, That's terrible. Long term care, just like an awful job. And I was like, I want to get her out of there. And so I started to figure out, like, I applied for Uber. I actually turned me down because my license was still from Virginia.

Jay Aigner (00:16:48) - So they turned me down for Uber. So I couldn't drive. I couldn't even be an Uber driver. Oh, my God. Um.

Else Kramer (00:16:52) - That is a great sort of thing to put in your CV, right? Like, is that.

Jay Aigner (00:16:56) - My right? Yeah. Got turned out by Uber in the wind. Started a, you know, multi-million dollar company like Screw Uber. Um, but then I was like, I was looking for anything. And then I just happened to stumble upon Elance, which was a consulting website back in the day that got merged with Upwork eventually and became the behemoth that Upwork is today. And I started picking up side contracts and I was doing side contracts for QA software testing stuff for apps and for websites while I was doing my 9 to 5 job, you know, testing at a bunch of different places and you know, eventually just kind of realized I have too much work to do in a day. I asked one of my friends who used to work with me at Mega Touch if he wanted to come work with me.

Jay Aigner (00:17:38) - And, you know, Hey, man, do you want to do 20 hours a week? Pick that up? And it's like, Yeah, sure. He still works for me today. Amazing. My old boss actually hired my old boss to come work for me at Mega was fantastic. Tim Tim Swisher was an awesome guy. I still talk to him all the time. So yeah, and then I just kind of built the business from there, which was I did it the easy way in the sense that like. I didn't just, like, jump out, like leave my 9 to 5 and, you know.

Else Kramer (00:18:06) - Go, I love this. And I just want to press pause on this because I think so many people think, oh, I need to like, burn all the bridges and cut all the cords and go. If I don't, it means I'm not all in. And I think that is so ridiculous. I mean, for some people it works and it can work really well, but for most people it just freaks them out completely, paralyzes them, and then everything crashes and burns instead of just, you know, gradually transitioning just so much smarter sometimes.

Else Kramer (00:18:33) - Yeah, well, it's.

Jay Aigner (00:18:34) - Just it's just a de-risked type of approach.

Else Kramer (00:18:38) - Okay, so this is funny because, like, my next card is risk. Risk.

Jay Aigner (00:18:41) - I love that game. By the way, one of my favorites say.

Else Kramer (00:18:44) - Okay, when you're in Holland, we'll have to play.

Jay Aigner (00:18:46) - Yes, absolutely. We have this big game table, which is basically just like a glorified like tablet in our house that's like a four person like video game table and has risk on it. And it's like, oh, so not have to set everything up obviously that. But you do miss the I do miss the physical pieces sometimes. Yeah. Um yeah. So risk I don't.

Else Kramer (00:19:07) - Yeah. So you're saying I avoid it like taking a massive risk still Like.

Jay Aigner (00:19:12) - It is risky. I don't think I still do, but I definitely did. I think I've become less scared of risk as I've gotten older.

Else Kramer (00:19:20) - How?

Jay Aigner (00:19:22) - I mean, this whole I mean, this whole project I just did with my house was, like, super risky.

Jay Aigner (00:19:27) - It was.

Else Kramer (00:19:27) - I know. It sounds like. Like a nightmare.

Jay Aigner (00:19:29) - And, like, I had to go rent somewhere else and, like, there's risk everywhere. I think that was I think it's just the biggest thing. You realize it's everywhere. Yeah. It's like. And if you're if even if you even pause to think about it, sometimes it'll be too late.

Else Kramer (00:19:43) - Yeah. You can't even get out of the door. It's way too risky when you start thinking about it.

Jay Aigner (00:19:48) - Like the plane could fall on your head, you know, it's like, what do you like? What are you going to do? I don't know. I mean, obviously, I'm not just like, don't throw caution to the wind, as they say. But I. I definitely live my life kind of afraid of of the things that could happen. I try to just think about the things that could happen, right?

Else Kramer (00:20:07) - The upside.

Jay Aigner (00:20:08) - You know. So. So do you think.

Else Kramer (00:20:10) - That is what shifted for you, the sort of focusing on, okay, but what if it does work?

Jay Aigner (00:20:15) - Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:20:15) - And I don't know when. Maybe I just always was kind of like that, but I think just. I think once you get confidence that like and I think all this stuff takes a little bit of time and it's easier when you're like, you know, later in your 30s when you're like, Hey, like some of the stuff has worked out that I tried. Like it's easier to just be like, Oh yeah, of course. It's like just no risk. Just go try it. Um, but yeah, I mean, there's certain times where there's like a lump in your throat and like, Is this going to work? Like, I don't know. And you, you know, you give it a shot. Um, but I think risk is if you don't have. If you're if you're too comfortable, you're probably not in the right place anymore.

Else Kramer (00:20:56) - You know, I love this. Okay. Say louder for people in the back.

Jay Aigner (00:21:00) - If you're too comfortable, you're probably not in the right place anymore.

Else Kramer (00:21:06) - Because you stopped growing.

Jay Aigner (00:21:08) - You should be like nerves are good.

Else Kramer (00:21:11) - Yeah, a little bit right now. Like, so, so much that you're making courses all the time. Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:21:16) - Not not paralyzed and, like, terrified, but excited. Yeah. You should be on. I mean, again, what are we doing? You know, if we're not excited, if we're not just, like a number of days you have around here, like, what are you doing? Like, you're just going to work and punch it in and punch it out? Like, what kind of what's the point? Boring existence. And then you look back and the things that keep, you know, try to meditate and do a lot of like contemplative stuff. And they like the biggest thing is like you have a finite number of days with people in your life and like, if what are you going to do? Like, what is their impression of you going to be? And what if this next interaction was your last Like, like you would want that to be special and important.

Jay Aigner (00:21:59) - And I try to live that. And I think that takes, you know, the fear of risk away. So just do it. Just just hang out. Just go, you know, have a good time and try new things.

Else Kramer (00:22:08) - Love it. Do you have any systems and structures that you sort of that help you get through all the things?

Jay Aigner (00:22:16) - Systems and structures. I think. I think about this a lot. I don't. I don't know that I do.

Else Kramer (00:22:28) - So no notion obsidian like all the things. No second brain.

Jay Aigner (00:22:32) - I mean, I've tried the second brain thing and, you know, that's. It's. It's a lot of work, man. I know.

Else Kramer (00:22:37) - I tried it, too. It's not working for me either.

Jay Aigner (00:22:41) - It's like you gotta index your life into, like, a notes app. Like, again. I mean, look, it probably works. It's probably why some people are billionaires and, you know, whatever. Um, no, I really don't know. I have implemented systems in my life, but I don't live by a system, right? Like, for my business, we have systems, but.

Jay Aigner (00:23:05) - Yeah. I mean, I try to have a routine. I don't know if you'd call that a system or not, but I mean, I call that.

Else Kramer (00:23:11) - A structure, right? A way of structuring your day today, which can be insanely helpful.

Jay Aigner (00:23:16) - That is very helpful for me, structuring a routine. And it was probably the biggest shift professionally and just personally for me was shifting to a, you know, the 5 a.m. wake up, which is like cliche at this point. It's go wake up at five like you'll be the greatest. It's like, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just like, it has worked for me. But the 5 a.m. workout or five in wake up workout, because I do believe very heavily that physical movement and mental health are like very tightly tied together.

Else Kramer (00:23:46) - 100%.

Jay Aigner (00:23:49) - Mobility, I also believe is really big, which I had didn't even really understand what that word meant in my younger life. But a lot do a full body stretch like every day. So it's wake up workout, stretch, meditate, which I also think is very important.

Jay Aigner (00:24:03) - Again, very cliche, very like, you know, oddly enough, still like kind of hipster, kind of like hippie kind of.

Else Kramer (00:24:09) - I was. You don't need to apologize, right? Like, listen, meditation is fucking awesome. I'm not.

Jay Aigner (00:24:13) - I'm not. I'm just saying in general, like, you hear that. It's like, become to come back around as being cool again, you know, like, went away for a while and like. But I love it. It's very, it's, it works.

Else Kramer (00:24:24) - Like I get all my clients. I say, if you haven't got it already, here's like 30 days of the Headspace app. Just go try it because it is a life changer. Seriously.

Jay Aigner (00:24:33) - It's unbelievable. Well, it's just it's just weird because it's like it's the space between, you know, it's like really like the it's not the it's not like it's not going to solve things. It's just like the noise. Like it's in between the noise. Like you find those moments where you're like, oh, like I'm being mindful, this is great.

Jay Aigner (00:24:48) - And then journaling is my last one. So kind of like a five for five thing I do. I try to do that every day and then journaling is huge for me. Um, I don't see a therapist, but I have been to a therapist, I've been to therapy sessions, and that feeling of relief that you get there was a light version of that, I believe, when you journal. Yeah. Um, just because if all the things are just literally like the old windows screensaver, like bouncing around in your head, just like hitting the different corners all day and like, you can't, you know, and you can't tell everybody everything because you probably sound like a lunatic if you tell.

Else Kramer (00:25:22) - So they don't want to hear it.

Jay Aigner (00:25:23) - Nobody gives a shit, you know, It's like and it's fine, like this piece of paper or my app or whatever I'm using, you know, it's and I try to find consistency in like, which medium I'm going to use. Because if it's, if there's too much resistance like.

Jay Aigner (00:25:37) - Like my notebook, like I try to use my notebook. I try to use like the guided journaling thing. It's like a lot of times it's easy for me, like open up the app, open up an app. Like I think it's called Diary Room or something. It's just a diary. I just open up.

Else Kramer (00:25:53) - Oh, I've lost your sound.

Jay Aigner (00:26:06) - Hello? You're back. Am I back?

Else Kramer (00:26:09) - Yeah. That was weird. Oh, maybe it's my Internet. Hang on.

Jay Aigner (00:26:13) - Okay. I was gonna say muted and muted, but.

Else Kramer (00:26:17) - That's all you did. And now you're back. Anyway, you're back. You were saying you could.

Jay Aigner (00:26:21) - Do, like, a short commercial break there now. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:26:24) - We're back. Buy more Lego.

Jay Aigner (00:26:25) - Yes, Buy more Lego. Listen to the Lego podcast by Elsa Kramer. Um, so yeah, I was going to say, diary is journaling is big for me, mainly just because, um, you know, get some of those thoughts out that, that are just trapped up there all the time.

Jay Aigner (00:26:43) - And if I do all those things and that's why I get annoyed with the breakup because I feel like I only have a certain amount of time before my kids get up and before the day starts. And if I can do all those things between 5 and 6 a.m., then the rest of my days like it's done solid. Yeah, it's done. Like, everything's done like, all the hard stuff's out of the way. So, um, that's kind of my main routine. And then my wife is there.

Else Kramer (00:27:09) - Sorry. Go ahead.

Jay Aigner (00:27:11) - I was going to say, my wife and I try to live by the calendar as much as possible. And as you can imagine, with a bunch of kids, that's that's tough. But we do try Sunday evenings at like a specific time to sit down, go through the calendar for the week. So there's not like a, Oh, I thought you were going to be doing this. Or I'm like, Oh yeah, I've got this thing to do. And it's like, Oh, was like, So we're not perfect at it.

Jay Aigner (00:27:34) - But that's something we're trying, trying to do.

Else Kramer (00:27:37) - I was going to ask, is there anything in your physical space also that you have that helps you do the things you do or eliminates distractions or actually just inspires you?

Jay Aigner (00:27:48) - I think my physical space. Like right now, like in my office or just in general.

Else Kramer (00:27:55) - Well, that's not with your office, right? When you look around, what do you notice?

Jay Aigner (00:28:01) - That's a great question. Too much clutter drives me crazy, I think, in his distracting. But it's almost impossible to keep it perfectly clean. So like, there's a balance between just like moderate clutter and just like, perfectly, you know.

Else Kramer (00:28:20) - Empty desk.

Jay Aigner (00:28:21) - Then you're just sitting there like, rubbing little stains off your desk all day, which is not good either. Um.

Else Kramer (00:28:27) - This is why I have six desks, by the way. But that's the difference.

Jay Aigner (00:28:30) - Desks.

Else Kramer (00:28:32) - I have different desks for different tasks.

Jay Aigner (00:28:34) - Really? Yeah. That's pretty cool. I like that. That's. That seems.

Else Kramer (00:28:41) - Obscene, almost really have a massive space.

Jay Aigner (00:28:44) - Obscene. But that's still it's brilliant, but it works for me. I think my physical space, um. You know, I will. You know, again, with the workout theme, I think a good yoga mat. Um, my peloton bike. My weight. My obscenely large shower. That was the only thing that I cared about during this house. Rebuild. Um.

Else Kramer (00:29:13) - But wait. I think shower like I call my shower or like having a shower is going into my idea lap, right? That is when I just. I mean, it is so it is massively important to have a good shower.

Jay Aigner (00:29:25) - It's it's what I've always thought I needed. I'm in there. I'm like, I got the big rain head. I have the things coming out of the wall. I have like, it is a.

Else Kramer (00:29:35) - You're living the dream.

Jay Aigner (00:29:37) - Well, it's just like a it's a it's something I feel like, you know. Sometimes you don't feel like you've earned the things that you have.

Jay Aigner (00:29:44) - You know what I mean? You feel like, Oh, I probably don't deserve this, but like, that's one thing. I'm like, you know what? I this is good. This is I earned this and this is good. Like, I need this recharge. I need this reset after, you know, to start the day to end the day, whatever it is. Um. I'm such a stupid answer. Good cookware. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:30:04) - Oh, my God.

Jay Aigner (00:30:05) - It's very important.

Else Kramer (00:30:08) - Oh, my God. I think it's.

Jay Aigner (00:30:10) - Very important.

Else Kramer (00:30:11) - Tools. Basically, this is about tools, right? You need proper tools.

Jay Aigner (00:30:15) - I'm a tools fanatic, you know, not going into the software space, but, like, I'm just a tools nerd when it comes to. And I'm going to get space because in software testing there's a million tools and that get to be a tools expert and I get to sell that expertise. So it's like a big, you know, kind of comes back around. So I would say.

Jay Aigner (00:30:38) - Those are probably my telescope. My telescope is another one that. And it's been so damn cloudy in the all the smoke from the wildfires in Canada comes right down to us. And it just like that's absolutely cuts it out so. Uh, yeah, I'd say that's pretty much it.

Else Kramer (00:30:57) - Okay. Just focusing on the telescope. How did that start? Mean. How did you end up? And I have to tell people. Listen, you have to check out his Instagram. It's insane. It's so. No, but seriously, as a professional photographer or professional photographer. But you can never really stop.

Jay Aigner (00:31:15) - Can you say you're not an actor?

Else Kramer (00:31:16) - No, but it's so amazingly beautiful. I just. I could. I was scrolling. I was like, what? How? Like, I almost get this, like, this beautiful sense of awe. And I'm like, Oh, my God. Right? How is the universe so beautiful? So how did that start?

Jay Aigner (00:31:34) - Uh, I don't know if you can see it, but there's a drone right there, so that kind of started it.

Jay Aigner (00:31:41) - Um. So a few years ago. I think it's a Father's Day a few years ago. Remember Neowise? The comet, The one that came, You could like, see, there was a comet that everybody could see. And it was like a big deal. And you could see with the naked eye. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. It was like a pretty it was I guess it was probably 4 or 5 years. I'm not sure, but. Yeah, I. I that was happening and I was like into that new drone. I got back there like and it's a Mavic Air two drone. It's like a nice drone, just like doing a bunch of, like, you know, video stuff and like, you know, just that cool stuff. It's like I think it's got like 4 or 8 k camera. It's a nice camera. Um, that's pretty neat. It's pretty, it's pretty nice. It's a, it's a nice drone and they're like, pretty affordable. Um, but I was trying long exposures because you can has a, you know, a gimbal or gyroscope on it.

Jay Aigner (00:32:31) - So like it just doesn't, you know, you can take long exposure. And I took one of the comment and I was like, That's pretty damn cool. It was just like a little, you know, off in the horizon. And I'm like, That's cool. And it's kind of the backdrop of of the rest of the the sky. And so I was like, you know, this is pretty neat. Let me try let me see if I can take some night shots. Actually, the camera that I'm using now, which is my new video camera that I've pulled out of a drawer about two weeks ago, Uh. I started doing long exposures at night and like it was, they were like these old just like smudgy looking because didn't understand how the rotation of the earth worked. Right, right. Right Then And there was like a little smudge, like tiny, tiny smudge in the corner. And it was Andromeda. Oh, wow. I was like, that's pretty cool.

Else Kramer (00:33:19) - Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:33:19) - And so, like, I Googled, like, you know, you go down the Google rabbit hole and this guy, Nico Carver, who was like the.

Jay Aigner (00:33:27) - Uh, Harvard Astro. He was a librarian at the Astronomy Library and Harvard or something. He made all these really cool videos, and he actually. He's part of my group now. My astrophotography group. Um. And he has all these cool videos of like, how do you take long exposures of Andromeda? And like you can get some really impressive results for like a little, you know, mirrorless canon camera. And so that's how it started. And then I went online and people were kind of assholes about the hobby, quite frankly, just like a bunch. So just like a bunch of old rich white dudes with lots of money and nice telescopes and are just like, don't.

Else Kramer (00:34:06) - It's the same with photography, right?

Jay Aigner (00:34:08) - Like it's 100% the same way. It's very, very gatekeeping. Like annoying, like they think they're it's like, I didn't like that. And so I was on Reddit and I had met this guy and we started he was like, Oh, he's like, I saw the picture of Andromeda.

Jay Aigner (00:34:22) - He's like, This is I have the same exact gear. That's crazy. And so anyway, I started a Slack group and I started inviting people and we had probably 5 or 6 people and that grew to like 20 or 30. And then we switched over to Discord, which is a little easier in this modern day and age invite and add people to or whatever. And I just started messaging people, I would find, you know, and it's very easy on social media to kind of go down the Instagram Instagram rabbit hole of. All the different astrophotographers I'd message bunch of them. They'd be like, Oh, that's great. I'd love to join your group. Same thing with Reddit. I would do that. And then I had around 4 or 500 people in the group, and then ChatGPT came out and I was like, Let me see if I can automate some of my processes here. And we're at a I got about a thousand people in the last few months, up to around four, I think 12 or 1300 now.

Jay Aigner (00:35:17) - Um. By using the bot that I built with GPT. Going through my normal channels that I normally go through Instagram, Reddit, whatever, reaching out to them, sending the same messages I would send. I already have an established profile on those things. And people. You have the.

Else Kramer (00:35:31) - Credibility.

Jay Aigner (00:35:32) - Yeah. Go. Yeah, like hell yeah. So, I mean, we just, like, skyrocketed. Um, and so we do like, we have some just, like, really cool things that got a lot of. Okay, hang.

Else Kramer (00:35:40) - On, hang on. Because I have to press pause on this as well because I think this is like crazy useful advice for people who want to build communities. And I know there's lots of smart people out there is like who are like, I want to play with other people. Where are they who have my type of brain or are interested in the same thing? And sitting at home being lonely? Hello. Did you just hear this?

Jay Aigner (00:36:00) - Yeah. Go make yourself a bot.

Jay Aigner (00:36:02) - Make some friends. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:36:03) - 100%. And yes, they count as friends. In case you're wondering.

Jay Aigner (00:36:08) - Why wouldn't they? I've met a lot of these people. A lot of them. I met quite a few of them in real life, so. Yeah, totally.

Else Kramer (00:36:15) - So now you have like, this massive community of people who take amazing pictures.

Jay Aigner (00:36:19) - Yes. And we all help each other and we all there's like some very simple rules or just basically like, don't be a dick. Like, that's kind of like the main rule. Um, we haven't had really any problems. Like, everybody, like, likes each other. It's a very fun hobby. Like it's, there's levels of it, you know, where like, people are kind of happy where they're at and they move up to the next level and they like me, like.

Else Kramer (00:36:41) - Yeah, because let's, let's be frank here. It can also be quite an expensive hobby.

Jay Aigner (00:36:46) - It is a very expensive hobby. It is. It is.

Jay Aigner (00:36:49) - And I went, you know. As you can probably guess, I don't I don't typically like to, like, just dip my toe and I'm like, Yeah, you go in. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I mean, and I'm still adding stuff and changing stuff and, you know, adding a rotator. So like, I don't have to go out and do anything. Like it just it'll manually rotate to the right orientation because I'm running that inside in a program. But um, yeah, I'm super proud of the group. Like we've got some really, really cool people and like that's the thing. The biggest thing that if anybody is trying to build a community is like. You will find other cool people that also have like a passion for being in a cool people group. Like it's just like it's just like human nature. Like I've got we've got some guys that are like, just unreal, like, like legendary Astrophotographers You got guys that are like in college, like this one kid that we will that is like kind of like one of our like early stage guys who who's worked with us forever.

Jay Aigner (00:37:49) - He. He does stuff that like people have been doing the hobby for like 30 or 40 years, like, oh my God, this is incredible. This is this is amazing. And we started putting together these collaborations so people all over the world. If you're in the right hemisphere, you can't shoot stuff in the southern hemisphere. But, um, which I didn't really understand until I started doing photography. What is it that makes sense? Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:38:12) - No, you have a different perspective.

Jay Aigner (00:38:14) - And you have different things. You can shoot. There's different targets. Um, we would combine our data, and as long as you have similar enough. Scopes. You can combine your data and weave like one, like a ward's like our stuff is in magazines now, like our collaborations where we have like hundreds of hours of data that we've put together because as you stack, the more basically the more data you have, the clearer the images become because you're reducing the noise, right? So you're just stacking images.

Jay Aigner (00:38:41) - So if you have hundreds and.

Else Kramer (00:38:43) - Just for people who have no idea like what noise is like in photography, noise is where you get like all the speckles in your image. And if you do like low light photography, noise is always going to be a problem. Yes. Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:38:54) - Yes. And. And there's different types of noise. You know, there's like, there's heat noise. Uh, so depending on like, you have to calibrate all of the frames that you take in astrophotography because the heat of your camera and the optics in your this, any specks or anything or dust in your optics, you have to filter those out with calibration frames, as I'm sure you know. Um, and then, you know, like I said, the, the masterpiece is stacking all together and then there's all these tools that that we use to, to process them because spoiler alert to anybody, you can't really see any of this stuff. If you were to fly out in space, it's all basically invisible light spectrum kind of stuff.

Jay Aigner (00:39:36) - But, you know, Hubble took the artistic liberty many years ago to start colorizing that stuff. And we kind of use their palette and assign the different gases, different colors. And that's why you get all the crazy kind of cool. But there are things that you shoot in RGB. There are things like the Orion Nebula, Nebula, for example, um, the Andromeda that's back there. You can't really see it, Can you actually see that there?

Else Kramer (00:40:01) - Oh, yes.

Jay Aigner (00:40:02) - That's one of my favorites, Donnie. So that, uh, you could actually see that if you were in space. But a lot of the stuff you can't see. So anyway, long tangent. But yes, community building has been a big thing for me.

Else Kramer (00:40:16) - And as we were talking about like the, the telescopes being a wee bit expensive, like the next card is money. How do you manage like all the things money wise and how do you even think about money? I'd love to hear.

Jay Aigner (00:40:31) - I don't. That's right.

Else Kramer (00:40:33) - So maybe that's your secret.

Jay Aigner (00:40:35) - The secret is. I don't know. I mean, look, when you there's at some point I stopped living paycheck to paycheck, which was, you know, I think for everybody doesn't feel like that long ago. Even if it was a while ago. Um. Yeah. I mean. During consulting work. And building a business. Eliminates a lot of the money problems. I'm I'm always the the Grinch of the House when it comes to money. Right. I mean, I can't even if I'm off spending a bunch of money, my wife, you know, I have to give her grief sometimes for for going on Amazon too much or whatever. But like, in reality, like I spent, you know, I'm just as whatever, um. But. It's such a weird thing. Money is such a weird thing because you want it. You want it. You want it. And then you kind of get to a point where it doesn't matter as much. But I still have these goals, these monetary goals, whatever.

Jay Aigner (00:41:36) - I guess they're arbitrary at this point, but, um, you know, we just spent a very considerable amount to get our house done. Yeah. I mean, it was like, we're gonna live here forever. So we're going to make this our forever house. And I think a lot of people would have. Had multiple heart attacks dealing with the amount of stuff and renting another place and like setting up utilities and doing stuff in another place and then like still having five kids and then like another one on the way and medical bills and like, oh, it's just like, I don't know. Am. I just don't. I don't really. So, I mean, it's a it's a good thing and a bad thing, right? Think about it. But don't think about it. And I probably should think about it more than I do. It's very planned more than I do. I just know. I just know when I'm comfortable. Like the money. Like I don't have to worry. And if I don't have to worry, like, my buddy runs a great business, but he has, like, a spreadsheet with, like, every, you know, and everything is it's like, all planned out and like, he knows exactly every dollar and everything it's going to make and how much he's spending on stuff.

Jay Aigner (00:42:44) - And I'm like. That sounds awful. Like it sounds terrible. So I would say that I don't you know, I got to some point where, you know, we made $1 million in the business for one year. And I was like, that is huge milestone. But I don't know. As with any milestone, it's like. It's there's such weird things in life because, like, they're just like. They're just like a like a pinprick and like, the. The continuum. Like, they're not like this big. Like, No, no balloons come out of the sky. You know, there's no like, there's nothing that happens, you know. Tiffany Nothing. You're like, cool, That's great. Now let's do to like now to 5 to 10. It's like there's no there's no major thing that happens. And they're all just arbitrary numbers. Like $1 million is no different than 900,000 or 1.5. They're all just arbitrary numbers. Um, so I don't know. I think it's easy to obsess about it when you don't have it.

Jay Aigner (00:43:39) - And I think it's easy to be like you see, like professional athletes who blow everything and go broke. I can see why. Like if you, if you go from chasing this thing forever, now you have it, you just don't worry about it anymore. So there's definitely a balance of like, you know, being financially sound. Um, I also think money's like, I. I had lunch with a guy who has a team in the Philippines years ago and he thought I was crazy for how much I pay my people. And I don't. I mean, there's obviously a difference in cost of living and price. I mean, that's why we do offshore work. That's why, you know, iPhones are made in China. There's a reason why these things are the way they are. But. I always try to overpay and compensate people because I would like I feel like it all comes back anyway. You know, like if if you're if you're giving your people bonuses and like you're rewarding them for like, you know, being passionate about you and your company and doing good things for you.

Jay Aigner (00:44:37) - Um. It all comes back. Like, I mean, I spent so much money on bonuses a year. It's crazy. And, you know, I pay my guys pretty well considering, you know, the the average and the other kind of people that get paid over there. So, um. It's a I say all that because it's like. It's also a. A token of appreciation. You know, it's like a it's a it's you try it's a way to show people. So you get taught in American life like, you know, you can't buy happiness and you can't buy these things and that's fine. But like, at the same time, if somebody works for you, it is a very clear. Like picture of how you feel about somebody if you're if they're busting their ass over the weekend and do something like if they're just part of another big company, they're not going to get like a great job, you know, whatever. But if I go to pats.

Else Kramer (00:45:26) - On the back.

Jay Aigner (00:45:27) - Yeah, I mean, here's here's like 250 to here's $500 for like coming in and just being like a team player, like that person is going to work harder for me.

Jay Aigner (00:45:34) - They're going to appreciate the fact that I appreciate them. Yes, that money will come back in the form of like, you know, another client that's like happy down the line because that person worked like it's all just like I don't know, It's it's you get to a point where you just you feel like you can use your money to be a little smarter and a little, um, you know, make it work for you a little more. Not just in the traditional way of just like sticking in an investment account, but like, you know, taking care of the people who take care of you.

Else Kramer (00:46:02) - Yeah. And I think sort of the joy of being generous is so underrated. It's actually super fun to be generous. Yeah, right. We could have a whole discussion like, is it even altruistic if you get something out of it? I don't care. Like, I just love giving because I just get to feel amazing, right? Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:46:21) - No, that's a fair point. But yeah, I think it's a really good point though, like.

Jay Aigner (00:46:27) - There is no altruism, if you think of it that way, right? Like there's no like you're always getting something out of it. Like you're always getting happiness of somebody else being happy. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:46:37) - But whenever people say, like, you're leaving money on the table, that kind of thing. Right? I've had that a lot as well. And I'm like, But you're you don't get it. Like, it is fun for me to do it this way. So money is just one sort of variable and one aspect of the business, but there's so many other things and giving more money or making less money and then getting something else just gives me so much joy. Why would I, you know, want to trade that for more euros in my case?

Jay Aigner (00:47:03) - Yeah. I mean, look, I my. And and being able to gift things is like a it's definitely a thing that is underappreciated. Like you said, it's it's, um. It's never it isn't like you said, it doesn't matter if I enjoy it or I think that's the whole point is like, everybody is in it for something.

Jay Aigner (00:47:26) - Yeah, right. And like I'm in it for feeling good for giving money then like, that's fine. It's not.

Else Kramer (00:47:32) - A problem.

Jay Aigner (00:47:32) - It's not, it's not a problem. At the end of the day, everybody's happier. It's like, who the hell cares?

Else Kramer (00:47:37) - Exactly. Exactly. I love that. And actually, the I think we could give way more and sort of own up to enjoying it, right? Like being Santa or whatever. It is a great feeling without think having to put on the holier than thou sort of cap. That is a problem. But if you just enjoy giving.

Jay Aigner (00:47:56) - Well, there's condescension again, right? It's like. Exactly. So the power.

Else Kramer (00:48:00) - Dynamic, right? Yeah.

Jay Aigner (00:48:02) - The kind of.

Else Kramer (00:48:06) - Oh, I'm losing you again. Hang on. This is so weird. Maybe just mute again and unmute.

Jay Aigner (00:48:23) - Hello?

Else Kramer (00:48:24) - You're back.

Jay Aigner (00:48:26) - Last time this happened about like 10s later your video like paused for like 30s. So I don't know, maybe.

Else Kramer (00:48:34) - They're doing some work on the interwebs.

Jay Aigner (00:48:37) - Maybe. Maybe the transatlantic interwebs, maybe not. Though it's.

Else Kramer (00:48:41) - Weird. I'll have to look into it.

Jay Aigner (00:48:44) - That's all right. It's fine.

Else Kramer (00:48:45) - But you're back. We were talking about condescension in giving.

Jay Aigner (00:48:50) - Yeah. I mean, I think it's fine, though, that, like, it's a. It's weird that. There's any sort of negative connotation around giving. Yeah, except for when people like said, when it's like. Holier than thou is a good way to put it.

Else Kramer (00:49:05) - Yeah. Or or basically bribing people. But that's a whole different dynamic.

Jay Aigner (00:49:10) - A different, different story. But I think some people would associate like they try to pass off giving and doing things like that as bribery. Right? Like some people would say, what I just described was like.

Else Kramer (00:49:23) - You're bribing your employees.

Jay Aigner (00:49:24) - Bribe my employees. But it's like I'm not like I know my employees and, you know, I love my employees. I love I don't I'm not doing it because, like and I always tell my and, you know, people don't work for me.

Jay Aigner (00:49:39) - Don't work for me. Yeah. There's a million places to work. Don't. If you want to work with me, I would love to work with you. If you don't want to work with me. No hard feelings, man. That's. That's fine. You know, I'm not doing stuff to keep you around because. I you know, I want you to work with me when you don't want to work with me. I'm doing it because I appreciate you. And I think most people get that.

Else Kramer (00:49:57) - Yeah. And I think the another thing that sort of happens with giving and people who have trouble with giving is they have trouble receiving. I think that's another underestimated sort of skill, almost like can you receive when someone wants to give you something or show their appreciation? Appreciation? Can you receive it.

Jay Aigner (00:50:16) - Even if it's a compliment? Yeah. You know, if it's not physical even, it's just receiving the well-wishes or the, you know, 100 compliments from somebody else, I think is is really important.

Jay Aigner (00:50:27) - So yeah, it's a good point.

Else Kramer (00:50:28) - Give and receive more. Receive more. So phone.

Jay Aigner (00:50:32) - Keep the economy going. The give and receive economy.

Else Kramer (00:50:36) - I agree. My next card is freedom, which I think when I listen to you like with all the kids, all the stuff you've got going on yet you seem like a very free man. Mean, talk to me. How's it feel? Do you feel free? What is freedom for you?

Jay Aigner (00:50:57) - I think comparatively, yes, I'm very free. I think. And I love my children more than anything on earth, obviously. But, um. There are days where I wonder if I didn't have them and I could just go wherever the hell I wanted to go and do whatever I wanted to do and see whatever the things I wanted to see. Now, obviously, if I could, if I was doing that, knowing that I wasn't with them, I would be very sad. Yeah. Um.

Else Kramer (00:51:27) - But just the alternative universe versus an alternative.

Jay Aigner (00:51:30) - Universe version wonders, you know, what would that be like? Um.

Jay Aigner (00:51:36) - But yeah, I'm very free. It's. It's almost too much. Almost too much freedom sometimes.

Else Kramer (00:51:44) - So what makes you say that?

Jay Aigner (00:51:48) - A probably back to the self-discipline where it's like I mean, look, I feel like. The business that I have software testing. I feel like the position that we have, I feel like the team that I have. And again, it goes back to like this feeling of probably a good feeling of like needing to constantly be improving. If I'm not working hard enough, then I'm doing a disservice to them and to my family and everybody else. Right. Because I feel like I have something that I could sell to a lot of people. A lot of, you know, everybody needs software testing, right? A lot of companies need, um, scalable software testing. Just the nature of what I do is a great fit for the world. And I just literally just stumbled into it. It's not like I'm some genius. I just literally stumbled into this and it works.

Jay Aigner (00:52:40) - The testing process is very cyclical and it's great to be scalable. So like if you have a bunch of stuff to do, Oh my God, we need a lot of people. And then okay, things have kind of calm back down. We can scale back down. Like that's perfect. And that doesn't exist that often in the United States based shop with all my experience and blah blah blah blah, blah. So I say all that because I feel like. I am somewhat chained in by the fact that I know what I have and you know.

Else Kramer (00:53:09) - Your value, your worth.

Jay Aigner (00:53:10) - Know that like I need to be working a little bit harder than I am now. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy the freedom. Do I take days off? Do I take a couple hours here and there way more than anybody else that I know? You know, I mean, most of my friends and family are 9 to 5 and they're doing their thing. So I think. You know, just to continue with like the flip side of freedom is.

Jay Aigner (00:53:35) - Yeah. There's a. There's a maybe slightly incorrect perspective. That I have ultimate free time and I am ultimate free guy. And I can. You know, my wife is not working, but, you know, I'm constantly in and out. I'm with, you know, like I can feel the energy in this house. And when I need to kind of, like take some time off and do some things and she's pregnant again. So it was like a whole separate dynamic. But, you know, there's just some assumptions that. JS Always JS, JS always free. Right? Or Amanda is always right. My wife is always you know, there's she doesn't work, right. But like, she, she has kids.

Else Kramer (00:54:16) - Yeah. I was going to say, how can you even say that.

Jay Aigner (00:54:19) - She has five kids and I'm, you know, I own a business. So it's like there's an assumption that like, there's some weird thing going over here where, like, we're just not working.

Jay Aigner (00:54:28) - And it's so it's but this is.

Else Kramer (00:54:30) - More about availability, right? You're always available.

Jay Aigner (00:54:33) - Always available, right. Which is free, right? It's like being free, like, are you free? Are you like. And my wife will ask me that. And I just we, we getting little tips about it where I, you know, she'll say, you know, are you busy? I'm like, I'm always busy. What do you mean? How is this easy question Why? It's like she calls me, Are you busy the rest of this afternoon? Yes, I'm always. What do you mean? Like, can I not be? Maybe. But, like. Are you busy? Yes, of course I'm busy. Like what?

Else Kramer (00:55:00) - What is the question?

Jay Aigner (00:55:01) - Yeah, it's like, Well, just tell me what you want. Like, can I what? Can I. Yes, ma'am. What can I do for you? Right. And then so that obviously doesn't end very well.

Jay Aigner (00:55:07) - So but, um, I think I'm very free, and I think I take it for granted sometimes. And I think, um, you know, it's a good. I'm very lucky. I'm very fortunate. I am free in the sense that. I don't go to a 9 to 5. I am, quote unquote, the boss of my business. And. I bought a lot of that with hard work. You know, I put my time in and I bought a lot of it with. Fostering relationships with my team over the years. And, you know, I. I love them and I think they respect me. And I think, you know, I don't have to babysit. I don't have to I don't have to helicopter people because I've let them do. I've given them the opportunity to succeed or fail. And 99% of the time they succeed. And that has in turn led me to days where I don't have to be on top of things like my friends who in agencies are like in yeah, in the business, you know, like on top of it and like just like every project there's like and they're freaking out because they're working 12 to 16 hours a day.

Jay Aigner (00:56:16) - And I'm sitting over here going like. I got a couple of meetings today, like, what do you guys want? I mean, there's obviously days where I have like very long days, but like, for the most part, I'm not in the day. I've built a really good team and trained everybody to kind of do the right things and trusted them to do the right thing. So that's bought my freedom.

Else Kramer (00:56:31) - This was my question, right? That's been sitting sort of in my head like, how did you build that trust? I think that is a magic sauce. Like so many entrepreneurs who are listing one and like, how the hell do you build that kind of trust where you no longer need to be in the business so much?

Jay Aigner (00:56:49) - That it's a simple but tough thing to do. It's let the control go. Yeah. Find somebody you you connect with that you feel like you can trust and let it go. Mm. I mean, you know.

Else Kramer (00:57:06) - It's like stalling the plane, right?

Jay Aigner (00:57:07) - It's like stalling the plane, you know? But it's, um.

Jay Aigner (00:57:13) - It's a great it's a really great question And. The amount of control I've given. Hasn't really bitten me like here and there. I mean, things happen, but like, the benefits have just vastly outweighed the negatives. And I mean, I've gotten very lucky to find people who like to work with me and want to work with me and like to do what I do. And like they've learned from me and I've certainly learned from them. And, um. I think you just have to. Tear it down to some things that you. Could potentially hand off to somebody else. The same advice I give to anybody who's like trying to learn how to delegate or use a virtual assistant or anything else. It's like, go through your day. What are the things you don't have to be involved in? Okay, now take those things. Go on Upwork, go somewhere on LinkedIn, go somewhere and find somebody that has the skills to do those things. Pay that person to do those things and let them do it and you go do something else like that.

Jay Aigner (00:58:17) - And it's simplest terms like, that's it. And then you just kind of rinse and repeat across your different cycles. And, you know, I mean, I'm terrified that my operations lead would ever leave. Like she's the best person in the world. Like she's she does a lot of the day to day stuff. And I, you know, constantly try to let her know how much I care and appreciate and, you know, pay her well and and, you know, anything I can do to keep her happy. I'll do the same things all my like all my executive team, all my assistants, like everybody is just like. I love them all. And you know.

Else Kramer (00:58:52) - And you trust them again, right? I think them.

Jay Aigner (00:58:55) - More than anything. Like don't. There's no. I have. I've zero tolerance for not trusting someone. Zero tolerance. Like what the hell? What? Why would even they be in my business? Like there's nobody.

Else Kramer (00:59:10) - Were distrustful of them. Basically.

Jay Aigner (00:59:12) - No chance.

Jay Aigner (00:59:13) - No chance. Would they be anywhere near Because I have my my stupid face is on my these client interactions like that's I do the sales and I get these deals with these companies and if you're out there embarrassing me and my company and I can't trust that you're going to deliver on the thing like, absolutely not. So I think it's a very I also think it's been I've been doing this for ten years as far as like interviewing people and hiring people. And I can. I do feel like I have a very quick. Assessment process. I can sit down with somebody in two minutes and I can be like, Yep, vibe check passes, you know? And yeah, obviously we need to have a longer than two minutes, but. It's very rare that that initial gut check is wrong. Just from the amount of times I've seen good, I've seen bad, I've seen ugly. And it's like I know the ones that are going to work and they they feel right. I don't know what that is, but there's a certain kind of vibe connection thing, like, I have that with you.

Jay Aigner (01:00:13) - I think it's a very just same background, kind of just like same mindset, like, um, and every now and again, you know, it'll, it'll, it'll, I would say 2 to 3 people out of the last ten years out of hundreds of people have I interviewed and dozens and dozens of hired have my read just been completely off. So you know I feel like I've honed it pretty well. Yeah. And that just there's like I'm trust myself, you know, that's really what it is like. Trust yourself that you can train somebody and hand something, somebody. And if you don't trust yourself to do that, then you're never going to be able to do it. So think it is, you know, big of it is trust in yourself because you're the one at the end of the day is responsible. I never I never blame my people for anything. I don't care what it is like. I don't it doesn't matter what the screw up is. It all goes back to the fact that I was the one that was doing this seven years ago.

Jay Aigner (01:01:07) - Like if I was still doing it, then it would have been done my way. I did. I have somebody else doing that because I put them in that position to do that. And I either I didn't train them or I didn't understand that they were the wrong person for the job. So it is not anybody else's fault. When my team, when something isn't done right and I will be the last person to like blame anybody. So I think you have to just be kind of comfortable to know that like you're where the buck stops and ends and, you know, the trust is really just with yourself. Can you can you manage properly or people put people in place to manage properly? Because eventually you start building those layers up to where like people are managing people and it all goes back to like you sitting down doing the work. Like are you did you instill the same, you know, lessons and kind of the same drive that you had to get stuff done? Right. And if you did, then you could probably build a pretty, pretty good organization.

Else Kramer (01:01:58) - Love this. It starts with you, basically, right? So everybody out there who's thinking, I want to build a team, okay, Do you trust yourself? And if not, how can you start building that trust? Yeah. Okay. Now for something completely different. Play, play, play. So you're still playing video games from time to time? What else? Yes.

Jay Aigner (01:02:17) - Yes. Um. Flying. Flying is just.

Else Kramer (01:02:25) - Playing as well.

Jay Aigner (01:02:26) - Guess I'm flown so long I've. Yes. I could also probably show you. I don't know if I could show you over there, but I have a full flight sim rigged, like.

Else Kramer (01:02:37) - Like a cockpit.

Jay Aigner (01:02:37) - Kind of not a cockpit, but, like, if it's not going to reach. But, um. But it has the the the yoke and the all the pedals and all the the everything. So I do flight sim, which is super fun. It's kind of a video game, but it's also kind of training for flying. Um.

Jay Aigner (01:02:57) - Yeah, I love to. I love to play video games. Um. I love to play. Outside with my kids. Let's go to the park like I love. I love being in nature. Like, it's probably because I grew up in the middle of nowhere. But in Pennsylvania we do have lots of great parks. My littlest one is now one, so she's getting old enough to like, kind of go out on her little adventures. Like I'm a big adventure kind of guy. Like even though I wish I lived in the mountains, but I don't. But it's like I'm a big water guy, so we're constantly out like the lake or the creeks or like whatever, just like building stuff by the creek or throwing rocks or like fishing or like doing whatever. So I love to get out and be outside and just, you know, it's hot as hell right now over here. I don't know about you guys, but it's going to be, oh, it's.

Else Kramer (01:03:46) - Finally cool down over here.

Else Kramer (01:03:47) - I'm very happy. Yeah.

Jay Aigner (01:03:49) - Oh, is it? What's the 24.

Else Kramer (01:03:51) - Degrees?

Jay Aigner (01:03:51) - Okay, so that's like, what, probably 80 or something? Maybe 70°F. Yeah. I need like a I need, like a cheat sheet because I have this.

Else Kramer (01:03:59) - Yeah, same. But when it comes to play, would you also like tinkering and building things? Does that also come into play? Yeah, yeah. Because it sounds like you're doing a lot of that too, with the telescopes and sort of.

Jay Aigner (01:04:13) - I mean, that's 100% like in the play category. I'm certainly not working. Yeah, especially if you ask my wife. Uh, no, that's 100% in the play category. Even like managing that community is in the category, like talk, like doing the stuff I have to do for that. Uh, and tinkering with, like I said, like the Arduino stuff. I don't know. I doing hockey obviously is play. I mean it doesn't really get.

Else Kramer (01:04:40) - A lot of your life is play.

Jay Aigner (01:04:43) - Yeah. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:04:45) - But why the sad voice?

Jay Aigner (01:04:48) - Because. Because I also, like, really enjoy. Like it's such a cliche thing. Like, you know, if you enjoy what you're doing, you'll never work a day in your life. But it's. I really enjoy running a business like the same. It does not feel like work to me. Like I love like sitting down to solve a problem for my business. Now. Yes, there's days that are awful and there's days that are hard and there's days that are tough and everything's not fun. You're sitting on calls like a bunch of boring stuff that is. But like. Making a new marketing initiative. We're like, have to figure out how do I market my product to like a new target? Like, that's like a very fun thing for me. How do I how do I get on this sales call and really dial it in and like, understand their problems and like, like pitch stuff back to them as I hear it, Like, that's fun to me.

Jay Aigner (01:05:40) - Like, there's a lot of it that's fun to me. Um, you know, doing the podcast stuff that's very fun to me. So like.

Else Kramer (01:05:46) - That was my next card. So thank you was.

Jay Aigner (01:05:50) - Hesitation my voice because like I do, I do feel like I, you know, you could categorize it all as play, like there's no real. I don't dread doing many things.

Else Kramer (01:06:02) - But isn't that like, you know, when you define success, if you can live that way, is it that the best kind.

Jay Aigner (01:06:07) - Of the point? Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of the point.

Else Kramer (01:06:11) - When everything does.

Jay Aigner (01:06:13) - It's kind of like me not telling my wife that I like to enjoy vacuuming because I feel like if I tell her that, then like I lose credit for that, you know, it's like I won't get points.

Else Kramer (01:06:21) - For that's a little more chore, right?

Jay Aigner (01:06:23) - She's like, Oh, he just likes to it. I'm like, Don't you know, whatever. But it's kind of the same thing with, with, with all that.

Jay Aigner (01:06:29) - It's like if you tell people that it's there's no grind. Yeah. And there's no. I mean, there is a grind. Don't get me wrong. There is. And there's work. There's work to be done. But, um, you know, if you enjoy it. You know, you almost don't want to tell anybody. You don't want to. You don't want to sound like you're having too much fun.

Else Kramer (01:06:46) - We need to bust this myth, right? That, you know, I think it's because people are miserable.

Jay Aigner (01:06:51) - I think it's because a lot of people are just miserable in their working for nine five job and they don't like what they do, so they don't want to hear some asshole like me.

Else Kramer (01:06:59) - Just go.

Jay Aigner (01:07:00) - About having a good time shooting space and doing all. It's like, you know, so it's you got to try to be a what's the word? Not humble, but, you know.

Else Kramer (01:07:12) - It's right like toning down your joy. We just kind of said.

Jay Aigner (01:07:18) - I'm not saying I maybe tone it down in public.

Jay Aigner (01:07:20) - Like, I have a great time. Like, don't get me. Don't get me wrong. Have a have a good time. I and I hope everybody else does, too. That's the thing.

Else Kramer (01:07:29) - And you can also be like an inspiration to be like, Oh my God, this is possible. It's possible to have this much fun, right. And not get arrested.

Jay Aigner (01:07:35) - Yes. And not doing, you know, doing drugs or drinking. Yeah, give up. Give up all those things years ago. So I you know, it's that and that was a big shift like not not thinking that I had of a couple beers. It was, you know, a big. That was a few years ago. My wife quit drinking before I did and I thought she was crazy. And then I quit and I was like, oh, you don't have to be hungover in the morning. That's interesting. So that's been fun to to read. And I'm not like a big, like, you know, sober evangelist kind of guy, but I enjoy it.

Jay Aigner (01:08:04) - I it's an interesting challenge to, like, not have that crutch. Like I'm just going to kick back and have a beer at the end of it's like, yeah, not I'm not, not I'm just going to, you know, and again, like we've talked about like I'm very much a dive in headfirst kind of guy. So, you know, it was, it was never, you know, one beer was never one beer. So I'm better.

Else Kramer (01:08:24) - Off. And I have to say, like I think it's so much easier to either do it or not do it instead of like, oh, I'm going to like do a little bit less. That is so much harder. I feel like it's impossible.

Jay Aigner (01:08:35) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:08:35) - Like if you.

Jay Aigner (01:08:36) - Enjoy drinking and you're like in that thing, like there's no, there's no, you know, it's crazy to me when I go to these business things and I see people just like hammered and I'm like, it's like, I'm like, you're at a we're like a business launch and you're like, trash.

Jay Aigner (01:08:50) - Like, that's love.

Else Kramer (01:08:51) - That this is changing, though, Like you.

Jay Aigner (01:08:53) - Do. Yeah. And I used to be, you know, look, I mean, I'm only 37, but, like, I've, you know, I put my fair share of beers away, you know, in my day. So, you know, I feel like I'm okay to talk about it, but, um, yeah, it's definitely changing. And, like, the wave is like, a lot of celebrities are kind of like, helping, like, just make it a little more publicly aware that you don't have to just be hammered all the time.

Else Kramer (01:09:16) - And also, a lot of people like people I coach, for example, are speaking up in companies saying, listen, the Friday night drinks, can we just do that without the alcohol? Like, do we have to get pissed all the time? What the hell?

Jay Aigner (01:09:28) - Yeah, It's still it is still like you still kind of feel like the little. Nagging.

Jay Aigner (01:09:35) - You know, whatever. If you're like asking that and I think it hasn't quite shifted.

Else Kramer (01:09:41) - But think like the new generation, people in our late 20s, like early 30s, feel much more comfortable sort of speaking up about right. And saying, So what is this crap? I hope so, Which is a great segue into the next card, which is. Boundaries.

Jay Aigner (01:09:55) - Boundaries.

Else Kramer (01:09:56) - Boundaries.

Jay Aigner (01:09:57) - These cards for my pockets.

Else Kramer (01:10:00) - Let's first talk about kids and boundaries.

Jay Aigner (01:10:03) - That's your by the way. Maybe that's your next business. Is podcast cards.

Else Kramer (01:10:07) - What cards? Oh, my God. I've always wanted to make a card deck.

Jay Aigner (01:10:10) - Me too.

Else Kramer (01:10:11) - Maybe this is okay.

Jay Aigner (01:10:12) - All right, We'll do it together. We'll do a podcast. You shuffle it. Oh, this is great. You have different categories.

Else Kramer (01:10:18) - People, business ideas, being born live on the.

Jay Aigner (01:10:21) - Air. That's a great idea, by the way. That is a great. People buy that. People buy it. Um, boundaries with kids, they don't exist.

Else Kramer (01:10:32) - So tell me. Like that sounds impossible.

Jay Aigner (01:10:36) - No, I mean, it's it's having a a partner in my wife that, you know, does get the boundaries.

Else Kramer (01:10:44) - You've delegated the boundary setting.

Jay Aigner (01:10:46) - I mean, not I didn't delegate the boundary setting, but. You know, she helps enforce the boundaries, you know, like dads. And they're doing something like this morning. She took the kids out to go to the farm where they're going to pet goats and stuff. Like, that's amazing. So like, she she has helped reinforce those boundaries. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's tough. And I think personal boundaries, like, that's even tougher. Yeah. You know, like, my God, man, I have a I have a sweet tooth I love. Candy. And I love ice cream and love all sorts of sweet stuff. And I you know, even last night, I was I was we have this place near it's called Produce junction and you can go by. Just it feels like you rob the place when you come out with the amount of fruit and vegetables, you get there for the amount of money you spend there.

Jay Aigner (01:11:37) - It's like and I don't know where they steal these from, but you get so much. So I came home alone off.

Else Kramer (01:11:41) - The back of a truck.

Jay Aigner (01:11:42) - Yeah. Oh, my God. I came home with just, like. Just like everything, you know, mangoes and pineapples and whatever. So last night, I did set my boundary of. I'm not going to have sweets after dinner. I'm going to have some fruit instead, which I did. So I think there's personal boundaries are just as important and hard to deal with because they're inside your head. You know, like my kids, I can like shut a door and be like, go outside. The one's inside my head is just like, you know, do I want to get up at 5 a.m. every morning? Not all the time, but like, I've set that boundary for myself for like, I'm going to do that. And this is a structure like we talked about earlier.

Else Kramer (01:12:16) - Yeah, I call them rules, right? They're my rules.

Else Kramer (01:12:19) - And I, you know, and I think that is the flip side of freedom. I think we're all entrepreneurs, like we're very free. But with that freedom comes great responsibility, right? Nobody's checking up on us. Like, what time are you coming in? What are you doing today? Etcetera, etcetera. We have to do it and to be accountable to ourselves. And, you know, not everybody likes that. Yeah.

Jay Aigner (01:12:39) - I think having it's. And also it's tough to like outsource that.

Else Kramer (01:12:45) - Yeah, you can't really then mean you just like have to get a job again.

Jay Aigner (01:12:49) - That's what I'm saying. And like people were like, we'll just get like a person that is like an adviser that you can. But like in reality, you have to be. You have to figure it out. You have to figure out. Accountability and you have to put in the time when you need to put it in. You know, I mean, there's been times where in the past few months where it's like we got this big client, they work these crazy hours.

Jay Aigner (01:13:07) - I got to be in on the weekend, like, I'll do whatever I got to do, like, but then, you know, that also opens up taking off on a Monday or like, doing what You don't mean taking up whatever. You just got to set those rules like you said, to be successful but not go overboard.

Else Kramer (01:13:21) - Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I am crazy disciplined in some ways. Like I'm in my office unless I've worked evenings. I'm in my office 9 a.m., right? Nobody checks up on me. I'm just here. Like, I just go. It's not even a question of not going. But then whilst you're in your face, you can still get distracted, right? Yes. Yeah, there's. There's so many things you could be doing. So much fun you could be having. Also mean seriously.

Jay Aigner (01:13:48) - You could just play with Legos.

Else Kramer (01:13:50) - Like I need to build Lego every day. That is just.

Jay Aigner (01:13:54) - That should be a goal for you. You should make.

Else Kramer (01:13:56) - No, it's a rules and unconditional, right? Like so right now I'm working on the smithy. It's a beautiful set like and I just built it in parts and I get to savor and enjoy it even more.

Jay Aigner (01:14:05) - So beautiful. So fun.

Else Kramer (01:14:08) - But listen, what about the future? Do you do any like future visioning? Do you have like ideas of where you want to take the company? Where you going to be in ten years? Or are you like, No, I'm super happy where I'm at and let's just have fun and enjoy the ride.

Jay Aigner (01:14:22) - I've tried, man, I've really tried. I've really tried in the business is easier, right? You can do. You know, forecasting or.

Else Kramer (01:14:33) - Yeah, you can at least do some projections, right?

Jay Aigner (01:14:36) - Next you know, next year we want to do however many million a year. Yes, you can do that. Um. I've tried. I've tried doing the goals thing. Write down your one, five, ten and you know those are great, but it just always feels so arbitrary.

Jay Aigner (01:14:53) - I don't know. Have I really have a tough time? Doing that. Like, I want to own a plane, you know, want to own a Cessna one day. Great. Like, what the hell does that mean? And like this? Like, I'm not going to work backwards from I'm just. Just the type of person I am. I'm not going to like. Back myself down from that. Maybe I should, I don't know. You know, want to get into doing some real estate stuff, like investing in real estate and like, I've always wanted to, like, own a rental place somewhere and, like, rent that out like, always. Something I always thought would be a good idea, like, that sort of stuff I think is in my future. I just don't know where in my future that's going to be. I don't know. What about you? Do you do you have a bunch of forecasting and stuff?

Else Kramer (01:15:40) - It never works for me either.

Jay Aigner (01:15:43) - Like that. I thought everybody could just do it.

Jay Aigner (01:15:45) - No, no. I still have.

Else Kramer (01:15:46) - To meet like the first person with a false brain and like, lots of interests who actually operates that way. So think the way we operate is we are amazing at like, pivoting and taking advantage of stuff that comes along right and think, oh, this is a great this is, you know, you maybe next week you walk around and you see the perfect property to buy, to rent out or maybe like in three years time and it doesn't matter to you whether it's next week or in three years time, you're not in a rush, right? You're just waiting for the perfect opportunity.

Jay Aigner (01:16:17) - It will be kicking around In my head, though, that's the thing is like I am like and that's I think that goes back to what I was saying earlier is like, I do have these things that I want to do, but like you said, I'm just kind of navigating through and like in the back of my head, it's always going, Hey man, I'm still here.

Jay Aigner (01:16:33) - Like, I still want to do this, like, get my pilot's license. Like, that drives me crazy. I want to do it. I don't have a date on my calendar where I'm going to get it done. Like, should we do that or do we just keep?

Else Kramer (01:16:45) - For me, it's more a list of things I want to experience. Learn also some achievements. But whenever I write down like, Oh, I want to make this much money with my company, I just lose interest straight away. I just I'm just like, Yeah. And then like, what does that even mean? Maybe I want to build a bigger community that I can get on board with, right? That kind of those kind of goals. I want to live in Japan for a while and become fluent in Japanese. Totally. And that's like working with Lego. That's always that's my thing. That's always in the back of my head. So I'm smart enough to have that in there and my brain will just do its own magic and plot and use whatever comes my way to further that goal.

Else Kramer (01:17:23) - I don't need to like have an Excel sheet.

Jay Aigner (01:17:26) - Which do anybody actually have that Excel sheet that works? Again, I know that like people say that and it's like, you know, it's like the infomercial, kind of like if you can, you know, like still the self-help guys, you know, like, does anybody actually do that? And it works like, I don't I've never I'm sure.

Else Kramer (01:17:42) - They do it. I'm not sure it works. I still have to meet the first person who can prove that, like, you can't predict life. That's why it's so fun.

Jay Aigner (01:17:51) - Well, that's also why I think that stuff makes no sense. Yeah, like, how do you know in ten years? Like, what the hell you're even going to want to be doing like crazy.

Else Kramer (01:18:00) - And think that. Okay, Love that you're saying that because think almost all people listening will be thinking the exact same thing. Like, I am like, I feel like I'm a completely different person from who? Who I was like a month ago, right? Let alone like in ten years time.

Else Kramer (01:18:14) - It's just unimaginable. What I'll be.

Jay Aigner (01:18:16) - Interested to do. You say in this, this is like, this is changing my life. I'm glad that I'm on this podcast today. So I swear I felt like I was on the island of Misfit Toys and I just was the guy who could not.

Else Kramer (01:18:28) - No, no, no, no, no. There's so many of.

Jay Aigner (01:18:30) - Us that are goal and like because you hear all the time, what are your five year goals? I don't know, man. I don't know. I want to own a plane someday. I want to live by the beach someday. Kind of like yours where it's just like I want these things eventually. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:18:45) - I think wanting things is important, right? Because they propel us. They. They or they pull us forward towards things. If we don't have desires, we just, like, you know, kind of stay put. We don't challenge ourselves. So we do need things that force us to grow and to evolve.

Else Kramer (01:19:00) - But that doesn't need to be a workout plan to, I don't know, make 10 million or and just a thought for me, like making a lot of money and then having to do nothing is the most horrifying thing. Right?

Jay Aigner (01:19:14) - I think that's yeah, that has been a big realization of mine over the past few years too. Like that would be awful. Yeah. I mean, it would be great for the for reason. Like, I hope I do get there, but it's not for the reasons why I thought, you know, it's it's to do things for other people. It's to put people in better situations. It's not. Just to have that money in the bank and then, like, who can? I don't know. I guess some people would just do nothing. I don't know. I don't know who could do that, but I could not know that different. Yeah. Trying to, like, not do something.

Else Kramer (01:19:47) - Yeah. Cannot relate. Yeah.

Jay Aigner (01:19:50) - No, no. I have a hard enough time sitting on the beach.

Jay Aigner (01:19:53) - I mean, I love it, but give me, like, ten minutes and I'm going to be wandering around looking for seashells or something. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:19:59) - Building a dam. Like.

Jay Aigner (01:20:00) - Yeah, Building a giant. Yeah. Built. Yeah. Like one of those where the water comes up and it'll go through the hole. Yep. Into the moat. Yeah. The kids doing that. Yes, that's me. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:20:11) - Yeah. And I guess it's, it's good that there's lots of different types of people in the world. Right. Maybe that's a good note to end on. But that totally normalizing the fact that you do not need to have specific goals and like worked out plans to get towards them. And if you.

Jay Aigner (01:20:26) - Don't, please let me know that like email me and let me know that I'm not confirm that. Me And also not just crazy people.

Else Kramer (01:20:35) - We can start the community of like the non goal people. Yes, we're still insanely successful because that's the other thing, right? You can be so successful without having the goals and have so much fun.

Else Kramer (01:20:46) - Yes.

Jay Aigner (01:20:47) - What do they call it? Moving the goalposts when you don't have it? Like your goal constantly changes. That should be the name of our podcast. I love it. Moving goal post Goal. I love it. You need a better name than that. But anyway.

Else Kramer (01:20:59) - All right. One final question I love to ask all my guests and you don't need to answer it straight away. You can just let me know later. But is there someone in the world who you think deserves a much bigger audience because they're doing amazing things in whatever field, Right. But they're, you know, those people who just do their work, don't want any attention, don't want to do any marketing, whatever it is. I would love to spotlight them.

Jay Aigner (01:21:27) - I'll have to get back to you on that. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, I know a lot of good people that. Would be up for that. Um. Yeah, I know a lot of good people. Um. Yeah, let me, let me.

Else Kramer (01:21:44) - Yeah, think about it and then mail it to me.

Jay Aigner (01:21:47) - We'll talk about it in our podcast. Yes.

Else Kramer (01:21:49) - Totally. So good. Oh, my God, This has been so much fun. Thank you so much. It's so.

Jay Aigner (01:21:56) - Much fun. I've never had this much. I do a lot. I do a lot of these. And this is by far the most fun one ever. So thank you for having me on and letting me ramble. Appreciate you.

Else Kramer (01:22:05) - Thank you so much.