Episode 83 - From Law to Mosaic Art: A Journey of Passion and Purpose with Francesca Busca

I am so excited to share with you the inspiring journey of Francesca Busca, a former lawyer turned mosaic artist.  Francesca's story is a true testament to the power of aligning your life with your interests and passions.

Francesca trained as a lawyer, but became instantly hooked on mosaic art after a visit to a Roman basilica in Italy. 

She started creating and studying mosaics - as well as innovating the whole field. 

In this interview, you'll learn:

• Francesca Busca's background and journey in designing a life aligned with her interests and passions
• Her experience studying law and transitioning into mosaic art
• How she quickly became an expert and started innovating in her field
• Her approach to making rubbish beautiful and spreading awareness about pollution and waste reduction
• Her personal rituals, productivity, and the importance of having time to think and be alone for creativity.

Francesca Busca's journey is a testament to the power of following one's passion and making a positive impact on the world.

Through her art and activism, Francesca inspires us to make a difference and create a better future. Her story is another great reminder that it's never too late to pursue what truly makes you happy.

Show notes

You can find Francesca and her stunning work here:

https://www.francescabusca.com/

https://www.instagram.com/francesca_busca/?hl=en

Ready to learn how to Manage your Smart Mind? Then download my free 'Mapping Your Unique Brain' Workbook. Go to:
https://www.coachkramer.org/brainmap to get access.

Are you interested in working with me? Click here.

Come say hi on LinkedIn |Insta | Twitter | FB

Transcript

Episode 83 - From Law to Mosaic Art: A Journey of Passion and Purpose with Francesca Busca

Else Kramer (00:00:02) - All right, smart humans, I am so happy to be here today with the amazing, inspiring Francesca Busca. Hello. Hello and welcome. First of all, where are you in the world? Because your name sounds kind of Italian, but yes.

Francesca Busca (00:00:18) - So I was born in Italy and then I. I just when I was 17, I went to the US in Colorado, in Denver, actually for a year abroad with AFS Intercultural, an exchange program. And then I went back to Italy to graduate from secondary school. And then I just started moving around the world. So I lived a year here and a year, another year, then London, Paris, New York, you know, Padua. And then eventually I settled here in London. And this is where I am at the moment, right?

Else Kramer (00:00:53) - So London calling.

Francesca Busca (00:00:57) - And I'm hearing it. I'm hearing it.

Else Kramer (00:01:00) - I love it. And one of the reasons I wanted to really talk to you and I think it's going to be amazing for all the smart people listening, is because you have had such a beautiful trajectory in learning how to design a life that works with your smart mind, right? Like what works and what doesn't work.

Else Kramer (00:01:18) - Because we're looking at amazing artworks behind you. We're not going to go there yet. First we're going, I want to talk about law. Yeah, okay. Because you studied law.

Francesca Busca (00:01:30) - Yes.

Else Kramer (00:01:31) - But to me is okay.

Francesca Busca (00:01:33) - So that happened. I've always been an artist. I think my dad knew that I should have been. But for some strange misconception, everyone always said that working is hard, and I just thought it was so easy. I just thought, this cannot be work, right?

Else Kramer (00:01:46) - This cannot be a job. Oh, my God. Okay, hang on. I have to pause you there because this is a massively important concept. Like everybody who finds their zone of genius then starts thinking, this is too good to be true.

Francesca Busca (00:01:57) - Exactly. And was really little mean, you know, so and it kept I kept on believing this and that's actually a big area because. Oh, my God. Where do you start? You know, you don't really. You realize that you get to things quicker than other people.

Francesca Busca (00:02:14) - But most of the time I ended up by thinking I was the one doing things wrong and I was missing something. Okay. And that is also what happened with my my job. Um, also, I have to say I did like the high school, the top schools, but I never really applied myself that much. I would only, you know, study the minimum to pass. And because I thought there was so many other things to do in life and interesting things.

Else Kramer (00:02:37) - Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:02:37) - And you never know exactly what you like. You like it all. You know, you want to do a bit of everything. And quite frankly, I find myself being a generalist, you know, like wanting to know a bit of everything. Yeah. Like, you know, at the beginning of times. Renaissance Woman Yes, that's. That's what I like to be in. There's so many things that are just so interesting, you know, and there's not enough time in your life. Um, anyway, and so I ended up by doing law because a people just thought, oh, you've got such a good, you know, gift of the gab, you can use it.

Else Kramer (00:03:11) - So that was it. You're so eloquent. You can.

Francesca Busca (00:03:15) - Yes. And then everyone just said, you know, you can do anything you want with law. Quite frankly, nothing I would like to do.

Else Kramer (00:03:23) - I know. I'm like, like what exactly?

Francesca Busca (00:03:26) - Yeah. So ended up by studying law forever because every time I went abroad I would do like a diploma abroad or I would work abroad or do a, you know, internship, whatever. And then and then, you know, when I had children.

Else Kramer (00:03:41) - Now, hang on, hang on. Okay, okay. You're saying I studied law forever? How long in your world is forever?

Francesca Busca (00:03:47) - Forever is too. Well, it's way too long now. So basically, I studied in Italy a couple of years, then was getting really frustrated because I was studying in I'm not going to mention it, but in a university where students were treated as numbers and as really I think a lot.

Else Kramer (00:04:02) - Of people are going to recognize this.

Francesca Busca (00:04:04) - Exactly.

Else Kramer (00:04:05) - So over.

Francesca Busca (00:04:06) - Yours. Yeah. But anyway, you were I mean, I would, you know, make an appointment to see the professor two months in advance. Then there I am. And he doesn't even show up, you know, big things like that. So after that, I moved to London. And I started over basically. So it also took me because I didn't recognize some of the exams, you know. Anyway, so I started over and then I also made it a year longer by going abroad doing the European Legal Studies. So I Paris for a year. I don't regret that at all. I love to study, you know, longer if that gives me the opportunity to travel and do stuff anyway. And then I came back and graduated and then I worked. That's also very interesting because. I applied for training contracts, obviously, but it takes a while. I wasn't I didn't even know whether I wanted to be a lawyer, so I didn't apply in time for those. You have to apply two years in advance.

Francesca Busca (00:05:01) - So I found my oh my.

Else Kramer (00:05:02) - God, really? Two years ahead of time as I had the time.

Francesca Busca (00:05:05) - And obviously, you know, people stop in in the back to get one because it's so hard. Anyway, So I applied for them when I pretty much graduated. In the meantime, mind you, my father also died, you know, in those years. So it's been quite a journey and lots of other things to think about. But um, and in the meantime, I found another job to do. And so I ended up by working as an in-house solicitor with a lot of responsibility actually before doing the training contract.

Else Kramer (00:05:40) - Interesting. So, yes.

Francesca Busca (00:05:41) - And the funny thing is that by the I told them when they hired me from the beginning, I'm really straightforward, honest, you know, I want things to work out for everyone. I'm not taking advantage of the situation. I think that being smart generally means finding something that's good for you and for the rest of the world, right? Yes, everyone can.

Else Kramer (00:06:00) - Hopefully. Yes.

Francesca Busca (00:06:01) - So I told them, look, I'm just going to be here for two years because in the meantime, I also got my offer for a training contract in the city. Um, and, um. And so, you know, if that's okay with you. And I said, okay, two years come. Of course I warned them in advance. Look, guys, remember, I have to leave, but they didn't want to let me go. So they contacted all their lawyers to say, Can she practice? I also wanted to leave by then because maybe.

Else Kramer (00:06:26) - You were bored.

Francesca Busca (00:06:27) - Well, I'm not sure, because they kept me on my toes. They kept giving me different.

Else Kramer (00:06:32) - Okay, good.

Francesca Busca (00:06:33) - This was actually quite fun. But the point is, I'm a pacifist, right? I was protesting against the war in Iraq. In New York. Right. The year before it happened. And there I was working in-house for a private security company whose main client was the US and whose main contracts were, you know, the Baghdad airport, the exchange of currency in Afghanistan.

Francesca Busca (00:06:55) - You know, lots of.

Else Kramer (00:06:56) - So a bit of a conflict there.

Francesca Busca (00:06:58) - Exactly. Mind you, it was really interesting. I met some incredible people. But, you know, I was dealing with ex wife. I well, yes, I mean, ex CIA. Yeah. And people that were coming from very interesting backgrounds. Um, but yeah, no, I got on with everyone very well anyway. And I think, you know, before you can make a stand up, it's good to understand and hear both sides, um, still stand on my side. But, you know, it was really, really interesting and it was a really big, steep learning curve for me with all the responsibility that they gave. Um, anyway, after that, I went to work in the city as a, you know, training contract, corporate mainly. And then and then I got pregnant. And I didn't want to go back to law after that, quite frankly, and thought, look, you know.

Francesca Busca (00:07:55) - So I stayed at home for the first few years. Look after the kids. After that, you go mad. Absolutely mental If you don't do something. I think everyone, not just me. So I started doing Mosaic because I took him to Aquileia, which is. Sorry, I'm ranting. Tell me.

Else Kramer (00:08:09) - That's okay. I will interrupt you if I feel like we need to, like, pause and thank.

Francesca Busca (00:08:14) - You. Good. Because basically I still didn't know what I like to do. And but then I started doing some art, you know, drawing. In the meantime, whenever I get the time, if I weren't sleeping. And then I went to Aquileia, which is a beautiful Roman basilica in Italy, and they keep discovering new mosaics, layers, new layers of mosaics in there, and they're amazing. And I took the children there. And next to it there was a little shop which sold actually some bags of pre-cut marble that you could do one of those mosaics with, you know, in a smaller scale.

Francesca Busca (00:08:49) - And I did it and I was hooked three days and three nights, not even sleeping or eating, basically just doing it because they're children.

Else Kramer (00:08:56) - Like a drug.

Francesca Busca (00:08:57) - Yeah. Honestly, because the children weren't even there, because they went to their grandparents to stay. And I just thought, oh, my God, this is it. You know, I love the the feeling of those stones in my hands. I love the smells that you get. I love also the fact that I could create and just, you know, be completely absorbed by that for once, like focusing on myself again. You know.

Else Kramer (00:09:20) - I think also, like, it sounds like you were completely inflow.

Francesca Busca (00:09:24) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:09:24) - Oh, right. Which is the best state or one of the people.

Francesca Busca (00:09:27) - Oh, my God. Yeah. Entranced. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's how I am. When I am in a project, I tend to be quite monochromatic. But yeah, I love it. You know, I'm not suffering out of it.

Francesca Busca (00:09:35) - But anyway, so after that, I came back because I was in Italy and then I came back because we go there during the summer and then I came back in September and found a place where to do mosaics so I could go a couple of days a week. Okay.

Else Kramer (00:09:46) - I'm going to pause you now, right? Because it's so interesting to me what happens here, basically. And I think this is a lot of this happens to a lot of us, especially the more impulsive ones, more impulsive, smart people for like this is the thing, right? And so for me, it would be like I ordered 20 books on the thing I order, like all the art supplies.

Francesca Busca (00:10:09) - Like, yeah, never enough. Yes, I agree.

Else Kramer (00:10:12) - And then we do like this. This manic, almost deep dive. Yeah. And then what happened? So you. And then I just thought.

Francesca Busca (00:10:21) - But listen, you know why I started using and reusing stuff? Because already mosaics use a lot of broken ceramics, you know, broken crockery or other stuff.

Francesca Busca (00:10:30) - And then I hang on.

Else Kramer (00:10:32) - But because now you're going way too fast, because that sounds like you were already doing lots of mosaics, but you got home from Italy. What happened then?

Francesca Busca (00:10:39) - Then I found right away this place where to go and do mosaics. I would be doing some there. And then I started getting, obviously, as you said, all the books and the material at home, and I was doing it at home as well. So. Right.

Else Kramer (00:10:49) - You were becoming like an expert, like in an insane amount of time, I'm sure.

Francesca Busca (00:10:54) - Pretty much. Yeah. I did this, you know, I went to it every time I went back to Italy. I would take a course at the school mosaic in Spain, which I believe is the best in the world. What I would be doing, you know, marble, smile, etcetera. But anyway, just to sum it all up, after that, I already started. I have another passion of mine in the meantime was that of permaculture and understanding the ecosystem and learning about the how plants think and actually how much smarter they are than than than we are and how they communicate.

Francesca Busca (00:11:30) - And they have. Yes. And the World Wide Web and reading a lot of Stefano Mancuso. Monica Gagliano You know pretty well mean so many.

Else Kramer (00:11:37) - But hang on, stop. I'm going to pause you again because I know what you're talking about, but some of the listeners may be like what you say, What can you say that again, like communicates?

Francesca Busca (00:11:52) - No, because it is. That's really interesting. So apparently the plant basically when we evolved from an amoeba, we decided, Right. What we were going to do in front of a danger, whether we would escape, run from it as animals did and we did, or whether we would stay and face it. Facing it is a lot harder, of course, but that's where the plants decided. And they have developed 15 senses that they have tried and tested already scientifically and other five they are proven now actually. Um, and they basically have the same things we do. They see, they feel they, you know, everything, everything. They talk a communicate.

Francesca Busca (00:12:31) - Yeah. Um, and it's just that they develop differently so they don't have one organ to do everything like we do because we need to move it along, carry it with us. It's all throughout their own body and the roots and also how they develop this community for which they're not individuals. They are a community of plants, different plants. And when people say that, you know, a tree grows taller before the others because he needs to survive instead of the others, that's not really correct. It only does it because he knows he sorry. I'm kidding. He he knows that he is more useful to the community than others to gather certain things such as sun or whatever. And then whatever he gets, he actually communicates it through the downwards. Yeah, exactly. And recedes. So if a tree actually doesn't grow in a community because either it's not needed, it's not necessary or it's ill and it won't survive. Yeah. You know, but still it will be one of the community in there. So it's, it's incredible.

Francesca Busca (00:13:31) - It's how we should all live, even with animals. It just makes you understand how little you are and you know how much more we could do. And if we all.

Else Kramer (00:13:40) - Contribute to the greater.

Francesca Busca (00:13:41) - Yeah, the greater good is all that matters at hand, you know? And that's how I also thought, you know, we are also, if we're so clever, how come we are the first species that brings itself, you know. Well, not really. We had the dodo before, apparently a few others. But, you know, to bring ourselves to self-destruction. And I don't think, you know, somehow I think, well, if this is what we do, perhaps we don't deserve to survive.

Else Kramer (00:14:08) - Maybe our fate is to. Is to die. Yeah. Yeah. To become at the same time.

Francesca Busca (00:14:13) - You know, I also hope. Well, you.

Else Kramer (00:14:15) - Have kids, right? You have. Yeah. There's this.

Francesca Busca (00:14:18) - Just understand. Yeah. And so basically all this I brought it into my practice as well.

Francesca Busca (00:14:23) - And that's why I started, um, looking at pollution, looking at ways to plant the earth.

Else Kramer (00:14:30) - I'm going to pause you again. Yes. Because you're saying I brought it into my practice. So by this time you had a practice?

Francesca Busca (00:14:35) - Yes.

Else Kramer (00:14:36) - What does this practice look like? Because we're starting. You go to Italy, you get super inspired. You have this kind of like, Oh my God, I need to find out everything about this thing. But then for most people, it drops off and they go on to another thing. But that didn't happen for you. Like, at what stage did you think, okay, this is something I want to continue doing, maybe even.

Francesca Busca (00:14:59) - Okay, Yeah, that's the point. Because also I think a bit because of course I merged the interest I had and also I felt the need of not weighing so much in the world, but also because I again, as you say, we probably share the need of learning different things and moving and pushing the boundaries and always going outside of our comfort zone.

Francesca Busca (00:15:21) - And that's also what I started to do with with my practice. You know, I started trying different materials because of that. And then I.

Else Kramer (00:15:27) - Just. Interesting. So you moved away from the Stones?

Francesca Busca (00:15:30) - Yes. And meantime, sorry, I also did a diploma in Mosaics and I graduate.

Else Kramer (00:15:35) - I have to interrupt you for one second because there's a parcel by the door. Yeah. That you don't.

Francesca Busca (00:16:07) - Yeah. There you are.

Else Kramer (00:16:09) - I'm back.

Francesca Busca (00:16:10) - Alive. Good. Yes.

Else Kramer (00:16:12) - You started realizing. Okay, I'm moving away. There's so much more I can do than just with the traditional stones. Yes. Yes. Tell me a bit more about that. Yes.

Francesca Busca (00:16:24) - So I wasn't the first one to use, you know, again, broken crockery or buttons or other things you find. But I think I moved away when I said like, I made the real difference when I just thought, why not use something that is not new, something for which I do not need to plunder for something, you know, that's actually otherwise goes to waste and adds to pollution.

Francesca Busca (00:16:45) - And so I started looking at my way. I just took my rubbish bin and looked into it.

Else Kramer (00:16:50) - Amazing.

Francesca Busca (00:16:52) - I've done it before once because I had a white wall in it and I just thought, I'm so, you know, sick of this. White Well, I'm just going to do something now. So we opened up our bins and we just made these this big koi fish out of whatever paper and stuff we found. They're still there actually, to this day.

Else Kramer (00:17:11) - Be fun to have a picture and we can share it with a podcast. So that is kind of the initial work. That's kind of where it started. The concept.

Francesca Busca (00:17:20) - Yeah, yeah. But I've always done that. Okay. As if that's why I told you. I knew I should have been an artist because they just feel like I need to use my hands and do something creative, crafty. But anyway, so at the end of the day, I became a mosaic. I graduated. You know, I also taught.

Else Kramer (00:17:37) - Okay, stop again, right? Because you're saying this like it's nothing.

Else Kramer (00:17:41) - Yeah. Okay, so what does it look like to become a mosaic? Am I saying it correctly?

Francesca Busca (00:17:47) - Yes. Yes, Yes. So basically, the London School of Mosaic, the place where I started studying Mosaic, was called South by Mosaic. It then moved on to become the London School of Mosaic. And it's a beautiful place. It's it's a community. It really does things for the greater good. It's non-profit. Everyone is really positive and welcoming and open to everything. That's what I believe. I mean, quite frankly, we're still stuck with, you know, looking at differences in colour, age, sex, whatever else, and income class, you know, and then the rest. And we're so behind. I mean, there was so, you know, beyond that. And they are they are so I mean, it's such a nurturing environment for everyone. And that's where they started doing the first diploma in this country.

Else Kramer (00:18:37) - Interesting.

Francesca Busca (00:18:37) - They also taught you also studied history on mosaics with, um, with Wootton from um, from King's College.

Francesca Busca (00:18:45) - Amazing. And me.

Else Kramer (00:18:47) - My alma mater. I studied that as well. Yep. I studied philosophy of kings, but yeah, but I just want to also pause, press pause on this one because this is a great example of I think what smart minds do. Like we find a discipline, but then of course it's in itself it tends to be not enough for our brain, like, Oh, let's study the history or let's become an expert in materials or Right. And it sounds like you don't know enough.

Francesca Busca (00:19:14) - You always feel like, Oh my God, what else can I learn? You know?

Else Kramer (00:19:17) - Yeah, but this is also, I think, how we can bring innovation where other people can't because we are so interdisciplinary, we bring so many things. Maybe even something you learned in law. Who knows?

Francesca Busca (00:19:28) - Oh, yeah. Quite frankly, I think I forgot all of that needed you erased. It went okay.

Else Kramer (00:19:35) - So you got a diploma in, you became a mosaic. I'm going to say it again.

Else Kramer (00:19:40) - New word fun. Yeah. Then what were you already thinking? Like am? This is going to be my new kind of career job. Or was it. Were you just pursuing your interests?

Francesca Busca (00:19:50) - I just proceeded because I would loved it. And passion asking me to do something stuff for them. And also I just thought, why not? I mean, I kept on liking it and I still like it. And I keep.

Else Kramer (00:20:00) - Okay, so another thing, people were asking you to do something for them. Yeah, Yeah. Because that's also really a good. This is how I became a photographer when I became photographer, right? Like other people saying, Oh, but this is amazing. You should, like, make more. Yeah. Was that kind of how it went? Because that can be a great sign as well. Yes.

Francesca Busca (00:20:17) - Really? Yes. Until now when I started using rubbish. Um. The best thing is that people will come to me and say, Oh, what did you use to do this? And they couldn't realize that it was an actual bottle or where it came from, which is great.

Francesca Busca (00:20:32) - And that's what I do differently. You know, many artists use rubbish, but they use it as it is. I reworked them in Tesla, so to me that's the prime material. You know, it's not rubbish because.

Else Kramer (00:20:43) - Not everybody may know what Tesla are. Tesla are.

Francesca Busca (00:20:47) - Just styles, you know, little bits.

Else Kramer (00:20:49) - The building blocks basically of the mosaic.

Francesca Busca (00:20:52) - Exactly. It's all the Mentos etcetera. And, and, and at first I just kept on doing whatever I was doing using rubbish and I there was like a. For some reason, I think that people wanted just to me to stop that rubbish. You know, I would be doing a piece on, I don't know, immortality, you know, based on Borges that I love his. Yes. How famous?

Else Kramer (00:21:21) - South American Author.

Francesca Busca (00:21:23) - Yeah, and many others. But anyway. And, um. But they would just focus on the one rubbish thing, and I just thought, you know what? Sod it. I'm just going to focus on this.

Francesca Busca (00:21:33) - And what I will do is I'll make rubbish beautiful. And that will be my aim. Because to me, art is not necessarily beautiful. It's a message. It's something that you communicate. A good piece of art is something that communicates something to you then. Then like a whole concept is visually represented in one piece, you know, or series or um, and so I, that's what I did. I just started making waste, beautiful waste, you know, which is the one thing you don't even look at when it's disposable and it's, you know, just throw it away and want to get rid of as soon as possible. And then now it becomes, you know, something you want to put on your wall. And then what I did, I just thought, you know, how can I just bring the word, spread the word of pollution and what we can do and, you know, then waste and how much of it would produce and how, you know, we should start rethinking and reusing and repurposing and reducing all this waste the most effective way.

Francesca Busca (00:22:27) - And you know, you can talk to individuals, but you one life, ten lives won't be enough.

Else Kramer (00:22:30) - Yes.

Francesca Busca (00:22:31) - Yes, government will be the best because of course, they have this umbrella effect over everyone. But they're so slow and they don't have much money and they don't have much time.

Else Kramer (00:22:39) - And you know, and sometimes the conflict of interest.

Francesca Busca (00:22:41) - Yep, exactly. And so I just thought, well, what about corporations? They have the money. They have the, you know, the capability of reaching, you know, thousands, if not millions of of people, people. And and also they have, you know, the quick. And so I did. And so I started basically selling companies their own rubbish.

Else Kramer (00:23:03) - I okay this is okay I believe.

Francesca Busca (00:23:09) - How to sell people their own rubbish and get away with it ethically.

Else Kramer (00:23:14) - So good.

Francesca Busca (00:23:15) - Now I'll say something more about this because.

Else Kramer (00:23:17) - But this is your so basically your activism started feeding into your work. Yes, in a very explicit way.

Else Kramer (00:23:24) - I'm sure it's always been there. Right. I don't think you can sort of separate the activism from the artist. But now it became a very explicit part of, yes.

Francesca Busca (00:23:32) - I'm an activist or rubbish artist or whatever you want. So basically what I do is great because I started going into this. I mean, I used to work in the city, so I knew the language. I knew exactly.

Else Kramer (00:23:44) - You know, the culture exactly.

Francesca Busca (00:23:47) - But I got in through that, you know, greenwashing tick they have to do. Yes. But I found people who really cared and that was so good.

Else Kramer (00:23:56) - Okay. And I'm going to pause again because that is good to reiterate. Like, it's not like all corporations are completely evil for the people who believe that, Right? They're still amazing humans working, working there.

Francesca Busca (00:24:08) - Yes. And that's where you you you realize that it is the whole system that has to be changed because people are ready and they're willing. And the way people react because, you know, it's not just taking the rubbish and put it up on the wall, it's the people have to collect it.

Else Kramer (00:24:23) - Oh, interesting.

Francesca Busca (00:24:24) - Yes. And you know, not.

Else Kramer (00:24:26) - Just they they just go at the end of the day, they take all the rubbish bins and send it to you. No, no. It's like you have a process and participate.

Francesca Busca (00:24:33) - Yes. And and that makes them stop and look at what they have in their hands and understand that you, you know, and it can have another value and another life and it can become something beautiful. And and then they will you know, they also have fun, I think I think they had a lot of fun. I had a great participation because also I would ask them, you know, do you actually if you have anything else that you think would look good or something that's interesting or an odd thing here and there that you find, you know, bring it to me and then we'll see if we can put it up on it. Um, and yeah, it's, it's, it's going well and they're really appreciated. They're also like a, um, an icebreaker with the clients.

Francesca Busca (00:25:15) - Most of the time they start talking about it and.

Else Kramer (00:25:17) - Okay, first take me to the, through the process. How do you organise you go to a corporation, you say, hey, I have this amazing idea for you. You give me money, I take your rubbish.

Francesca Busca (00:25:29) - They come to me.

Else Kramer (00:25:31) - That's amazing.

Francesca Busca (00:25:32) - Word of mouth. Now, practice started taking off exactly when when lockdown happened. Uh huh. That wasn't good. So I lost a few commissions within these two years, but I started gaining others. Um, and at the moment I don't have any agency to represent or any.

Else Kramer (00:25:53) - They just find you.

Francesca Busca (00:25:54) - Yes. I might actually have to refer to some. And if I go I found a couple of eco friendly ones or, you know, sustainable ones that I would use. Um, because it takes. So much time anyway all the marketing. And because I still do you know, of course I have to keep up with Instagram and little things that to me, I mean if I could, you know, not do that.

Francesca Busca (00:26:15) - Yeah, I.

Else Kramer (00:26:15) - Think many of us are like, do I have to wait, you.

Francesca Busca (00:26:19) - Know, to show what I do?

Else Kramer (00:26:20) - So the world does need to know about you? Yes. Okay. But then because I'm so curious about you, start talking to a company and they give you a commission to create a work of art out of their rubbish. How does it then work? Do you say, okay, Do you is there like a memo to everyone? I mean, how.

Francesca Busca (00:26:39) - Okay, So basically.

Else Kramer (00:26:40) - I.

Francesca Busca (00:26:41) - Have a look at the office and where they are thinking of putting the artwork. We decide on a side, we decide on. I have a look. Then I go around and have a look at all the rubbish, the waste, both from the office and the canteen or the bar. Right. Yeah. Area. Um, even shredded paper actually can be amazing. So you know what they do with their documents because some of them are confidential and you cannot use them.

Francesca Busca (00:27:06) - But if they're shredded, that's fine. So. And if they shred them in-house or they send them off to another company. So that's there's lots of things that I would know now by now what to look at and ask. And then we select the things that will keep aside. It could be a tea bag. I mean, not the actual tea bag, the paper, the wrapper wrapper, or it could be cans or it could be cups or it could be, you know, some plastic, it could be paper, whatever it is. Um, and then I. I don't know. It depends on how big they are. I give them enough time to collect and then take them home and work on them and bring him back. Everything is eco friendly from beginning to end. I try to be carbon neutral so that I go by public transport if I can. If I cannot, I go by electric car. My own if I can. Otherwise, there's also through get the app. You can get some electric cabs, right?

Else Kramer (00:28:00) - Right.

Francesca Busca (00:28:01) - There is a way around there. Um, depending on how big they are. And that's it, really. And for example, I did a project for New York office and I couldn't sleep that night because I didn't. I thought, that is not eco friendly, that is not carbon neutral. How do I do that? There was no way around like, do I just rush it and bring it over? Should I just say no? And then even speaking to my husband, he just said, Look, at the end of the day, it is your job. You still going to reach lots and lots of people because it was for the lobby main lobby of this major financial services firm. So he just said, look, you know, the plane is still going to fly. It's not that big or heavy. I mean, I could lift it myself, so why not? And so I did. And so now.

Else Kramer (00:28:46) - And I think this is also great to address, like think so many people get too wrapped up in the whole in like being eco friendly like they are like, oh now if I do fly, I am like the devil.

Else Kramer (00:28:58) - I think we can be a little bit more flexible, right?

Francesca Busca (00:29:02) - I agree. And it's all in like, do I really need to fly? Yes, that's the point. And then.

Else Kramer (00:29:07) - You know, and then make a choice like, does this serve a bigger purpose, etcetera?

Francesca Busca (00:29:12) - Well, you know, I haven't done it for, you know, six months. Well, maybe I'm allowed one now, you know, whatever it is, I'm sorry. It's just a matter of reducing and being, I think, just aware of what you're doing and seeing where you can cut, you know, you can reduce by so much. Just reduce. We cannot bring it to zero. It's impossible. We should be dead to do that. We should.

Else Kramer (00:29:32) - Be compliance. Yeah, exactly. Oh.

Francesca Busca (00:29:36) - I'd love to be in my next life, but yeah, yeah, that's what we do.

Else Kramer (00:29:42) - What keeps it exciting for you right now?

Francesca Busca (00:29:45) - Uh, using different material all the time. I love it when people give me a challenge.

Francesca Busca (00:29:50) - I always try to, you know.

Else Kramer (00:29:53) - What kind of challenge? What is a challenge for you?

Francesca Busca (00:29:55) - A challenge is using new materials or. Anything, anything that do.

Else Kramer (00:30:01) - They sometimes ask for specific shapes or do they leave that out?

Francesca Busca (00:30:06) - Anything that I don't know whether it will be working or not. Like, for example, mine doesn't take to all the materials. You know what if I say, okay, I'm going to use these and then there I am and they all fall off work.

Else Kramer (00:30:18) - Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:30:19) - Well, I love that challenge anyway. So good. Try new materials, try new shapes, trying everything new. Really. Um, accepting new ideas, spreading the word, learning more and more. You know, it's.

Else Kramer (00:30:34) - Yeah, it just does not get boring.

Francesca Busca (00:30:37) - No, exactly. For example, now, I mean, as you see at the back, I do lots of things with screw cups I love. Okay.

Else Kramer (00:30:44) - So I'm just going to for the listeners who are not watching YouTube, there's this these amazing color explosions.

Else Kramer (00:30:50) - Yeah. So I can't even see from where I'm sitting that these are screw caps. That's insane. Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:30:57) - What's they are beautiful. And you can also use beer caps. Crown caps. Is it just different? But yeah. So these obviously okay, first of all, I try to use things that cannot be recycled or reused, but as you know, everything can be recycled only up to 2 or 3 times paper plastic. And after that it cannot be anymore. And also recycling doesn't really work because most of what is recyclable is not recycled because it's either contaminated by something else or it's really hard or it's not. It's, I mean, or.

Else Kramer (00:31:30) - It's really expensive from like a fuel perspective.

Francesca Busca (00:31:33) - Right, Exactly. Exactly. So for example, in London, every council recycles different things.

Else Kramer (00:31:38) - Yeah, it's the same. In Holland, I think we're in Rotterdam and we, we do not have like this separate think it's just paper and glass in other waste. And in Amsterdam you have your organic material separately.

Else Kramer (00:31:49) - It really depends on the local council. Absolutely.

Francesca Busca (00:31:52) - And yeah, organic waste, actually that's a good thing because for example in Kensington they didn't and here they do. But anyway, or you had to pay and pay quite a significant amount. But I have my worms who actually eat it all. But anyway, so.

Else Kramer (00:32:05) - You have your worms. Okay, good. Have your compost tape.

Francesca Busca (00:32:08) - Yes, of course. Yeah. I've got my mum. They all have a name. Not that I can tell them apart. The parts of the family anyway. So metal is the only one, apparently the only material that is infinitely recyclable. But. But the metal caps. Most councils do not take them because they're too small and they just don't work.

Else Kramer (00:32:29) - It's not worth it.

Francesca Busca (00:32:31) - Exactly. So I actually feel so good that I can use these now, you know, at least here, without feeling like I'm taking, you know, metal away from new uses. Yeah. I'm being reused and. Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:32:47) - Well yeah. So basically, so I do this, I do this a lot. So I'm quite, you know, versed in this. But for example, I now I started doing waves and I just accepted a commission for school, actually ten meters of a wave mural.

Else Kramer (00:33:02) - Wow.

Francesca Busca (00:33:02) - Yes, which is great. But you do have to have to understand in Mosaic. Mosaic is the arrangement of tiles following a certain fundamental fundamental are those lines. So you have to know when to open up lines. If you know, if you go wider in the drawing, you will open up new lines or will you will use bigger tiles.

Else Kramer (00:33:21) - Right. But you have to taper off at some stage to make it fit again. Exactly.

Francesca Busca (00:33:25) - So you cut them, you know, to needs. Yeah. But in my case, all these are the same. No, they all have the same shape and love it.

Else Kramer (00:33:33) - This is a mathematical puzzle.

Francesca Busca (00:33:35) - You see. It's like exactly how much fun. Imagine doing a wave, you know, that narrows and widens and only using those.

Francesca Busca (00:33:43) - I mean, I love that. I love it's.

Else Kramer (00:33:46) - Like you're doing so many things, right? You're doing eco activism. You're doing tiling with math, basically. Yeah. Doing color color theory. Right. How does color work? Representation. If you want to do representation.

Francesca Busca (00:34:01) - And with Mosaic, you have to make do with the colors you have. So you need to know color theory very well. Um, and it's fun to study it and learn it anyway, you know, isn't it.

Else Kramer (00:34:10) - The best like color theory? That's we could do a whole podcast on that. I studied color actually for several years. I was amazed, first of all, how we know nothing about color, how our eyes work. Like, I had no idea.

Francesca Busca (00:34:24) - What we see.

Else Kramer (00:34:25) - That was exactly right. But also that we aren't really taught the science of color.

Francesca Busca (00:34:31) - Yeah, no.

Else Kramer (00:34:31) - It's.

Francesca Busca (00:34:32) - Fascinating actually.

Else Kramer (00:34:34) - Yes.

Francesca Busca (00:34:35) - They also work as a mood enhancer. Frankly, they have. I think they're quite magic.

Francesca Busca (00:34:40) - Exactly.

Else Kramer (00:34:40) - 100%. I always say I eat color like I have the type of brain that can literally feed. I also have a little like kind of anesthesia or synesthesia. Sorry, with, um, days of the week, I see colors, Right. And stuff like that.

Francesca Busca (00:34:53) - Yes. Yes. My daughter does too. And the numbers too. Yes.

Else Kramer (00:34:57) - Literally it to me. Like looking at color is like I'm being fed, I'm being fed. But also if I, for example, go to a hospital and there are kind of bad stress colors, it really affects my mood. And there's so much research has been done into this over the years. I still can't believe it's not being used more. Yeah, but also they have.

Francesca Busca (00:35:16) - Vibrations, so.

Else Kramer (00:35:17) - And.

Francesca Busca (00:35:18) - I completely agree with you. They really influenced us so much. Um, the vibrations they have, like when you say, you know, I got a good vibe or a bad vibe from a place I think that colors, you know, like many other factors, but colors.

Else Kramer (00:35:32) - Space, all the things, right? But definitely lighting, but definitely also color. So I can see that that is another thing that makes it super fascinating and keeps it interesting all the time. But another thing I want to talk about is your attempt to the payment in kindness. Oh, yes, yes.

Francesca Busca (00:35:53) - Yes.

Else Kramer (00:35:53) - Because I talk to a lot of smart people about money economy. Right. We want to change the world. Some some people say money is evil. How do we navigate that if we want to have impact on the world? But we also need to make money sometimes to exist. Some of us don't, but some of us do. Yes, many are like experimenting with like, you know, if you're if you don't have a lot of money, you don't pay me a lot of money. And if you do, you do. What have you experimented with and how did that go?

Francesca Busca (00:36:22) - Yes. Okay. So basically, I think that money is should just be a means of exchange.

Francesca Busca (00:36:27) - And they are bad when they are tied to greed and you just accumulate them for the sake of it or because you want more and more and more or.

Else Kramer (00:36:35) - Control.

Francesca Busca (00:36:35) - Unless you have. Exactly, exactly. And which would bring me to something else, which I'm not going to say, but, uh, or maybe we'll talk about later, but how come we are coming to self-destruction, you know? And how come people in power bringing us there and it is because they don't think they cannot be that clever because they focus either on control or, you know, anyway their own individual needs and greed. Yes. Otherwise it would be, you know, we would have a.

Else Kramer (00:37:02) - Very different agenda for the world.

Francesca Busca (00:37:04) - And people who are smart don't actually look for, you know, to be at the top of the world and control because they know that that's not what interests them. So what I thought is, um, yes, obviously if we could exchange things directly without the need for money, it would be great.

Francesca Busca (00:37:20) - Obviously it will put many more people in the position of being able to afford more things. You know, there.

Else Kramer (00:37:26) - Was an experiment with this in Holland. I'm not sure whether it still exists, but for a long time there was like this sort of economy, this shadow economy in Amsterdam where they had their own kind of currency, which was non tangible, right? And you could just but.

Francesca Busca (00:37:39) - You know, there is a place in England as well that has it like a 1 or 2 actually. Um, villages or small towns. Right, right, right.

Else Kramer (00:37:46) - Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:37:47) - Yes, yes. Well, you know, also that promotes the local economy.

Else Kramer (00:37:52) - Exactly.

Francesca Busca (00:37:53) - And zero local. Yeah, exactly. No, no, it's great. Um, so anyway, so sorry. I'm no borders, but, you know, if you can stay local. Yes. What you eat or you know, it's better, of course. Various reasons. Anyway, so I started this experiment for which I would sell my I would take money off my artwork up to the complete the amount of the piece.

Francesca Busca (00:38:17) - If you did some kind things, kind of the earth kind to the others, such as whatever you know things that could be eco friendly. Replace your plastic toothpaste with pastels or do not use a washing. Well, actually, I don't even think they were still that because this is back in many years ago. And I just looked at the page recently. I just thought, Oh my God, I was so behind. I need to update this. But you know, for example, back then it probably was replace the plastic bags with, you know, one for life, like a fabric one. Um, don't use plastic straws or glasses.

Else Kramer (00:38:55) - So busy rewarding people for eco friendly behaviour. Exactly.

Francesca Busca (00:38:58) - And I would give different points to each things. And also that was a way to make other people do my marketing instead. Then please tag me so just so I can stay off Instagram.

Else Kramer (00:39:10) - Clever.

Francesca Busca (00:39:11) - So. Well, I mean, some people did. They weren't tagging, but so obviously at the end of the day, you know, I would just round whatever they did up and just say, okay, here we go.

Francesca Busca (00:39:20) - Exactly. Thanks for trying.

Else Kramer (00:39:22) - It's all the exact exact science.

Francesca Busca (00:39:24) - Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, payment in kindness. Um, I still do it. I mean, if people offer me that, I would take it, you know? Um, and also, another thing I do is.

Else Kramer (00:39:35) - No, hang on. Listen, this is amazing. So if I say, okay, I'm going to give up on plastic bags, will you give me an artwork? I How does it work?

Francesca Busca (00:39:43) - That's the point. It's really hard to quantify. Yeah. Give you a few points and each a points, you know, equals a certain amount and.

Else Kramer (00:39:51) - Save up for an artwork.

Francesca Busca (00:39:53) - Exactly.

Else Kramer (00:39:54) - Exactly. Amazing. And how many people have actually, like done this? Two. Yeah, because. No, but that's the reason I'm asking, because it is super hard. But two people managed to save up enough points to get. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing.

Francesca Busca (00:40:07) - Yeah, Obviously there were people I knew so I could keep a track on them.

Else Kramer (00:40:12) - Because that's the other thing. Do we trust people, right, to actually keep their word? Yeah. And and tell me because and then also an exhibition was censored. Yes. Had a similar initiative or was it something else?

Francesca Busca (00:40:24) - So that was where the initiative was launched. But it wasn't for the initiative. It was because and I understand that because it was in the lobby of a residential estate in Kensington.

Else Kramer (00:40:35) - And for the people who don't know London that well, Kensington is very fancy.

Francesca Busca (00:40:39) - Yes. And there are lots of, you know, for example, people coming from Arab countries. So they have different, uh, taboos as to ours, for example. And it was censored because there were some pieces which regarded immortality or um, reincarnation or, you know, the flowing of life which were meant, uh, were probably found offensive by them. And I agree because I agreed with taking them down. I didn't say anything. It's a, you know, private residential area. It's not where it's an art gallery.

Francesca Busca (00:41:13) - I would have laughed in the face.

Else Kramer (00:41:14) - That would have been ridiculous.

Francesca Busca (00:41:15) - You know, this is what you should expect. I'm glad it actually hit you somehow, you know? Um, but then, of course, I just, you know. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:41:22) - Now I have.

Francesca Busca (00:41:24) - All of them.

Else Kramer (00:41:25) - I've had a similar experience where someone put they put like this Christian painting, I think it was, or statue in the entrance hall of my office building was like, Can you please take that away? Yeah, right. This is like a public we're shared. This is a shared space. You take your private Christianity, devotion, whatever it is, I'm cool with that. But take it to your own floor, please. Yeah. Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:41:49) - No, no, I agree. I agree. I agree with you. Like respect all religions, all faiths, but you've got to respect everyone else. So. Yes.

Else Kramer (00:41:57) - Interesting, but it's interesting that. So it wasn't a rubbish per se, but it was what you had depicted.

Else Kramer (00:42:02) - Oh, the.

Francesca Busca (00:42:02) - Funny thing is. Oh, the funny thing is, right before the launch, the, the, the public viewing, I went around to put some because a friend of mine said, well, wouldn't it be funny if you actually put the original item under each artwork so that they can see where they're coming from. I thought it would be actually very cool, especially because it looks like, you know, the rubbish left on the floor. So I went, went home to get changed, came back and it wasn't there anymore because the cleaner came around. Oh.

Else Kramer (00:42:33) - Sorry. Well, he makes my.

Francesca Busca (00:42:36) - Point really, doesn't it?

Else Kramer (00:42:37) - Yes. And this is a very interesting question, right? Like, so whenever something is perceived as valuable is so dependent on context. So you put it on the wall in a beautiful constellation and art and it's underneath the artwork. And of course, the cleaner sweeps it away, right?

Francesca Busca (00:42:56) - Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I know it's funny to recount.

Francesca Busca (00:43:00) - I mean, I was really upset when I saw that. Of course. No, no worries. She. She came back, of course. And God knows where they were.

Else Kramer (00:43:08) - Do you have an artist studio or do you work from home? What does that look like?

Francesca Busca (00:43:11) - So I worked from home at first. Then I got a studio at the London School of Mosaics. Then I moved, and now I have my own garden studio.

Else Kramer (00:43:21) - Oh, you built your own.

Francesca Busca (00:43:23) - As we speak. Yeah, because there are little things, but yeah. So this is my dream come true. I don't need anything from life but with the garden studio. And now I have it. I feel like, you know.

Else Kramer (00:43:33) - You are a millionaire there, right? Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:43:36) - Nothing else.

Else Kramer (00:43:38) - I think having our own space to create if we're creators is that makes you does make you feel like a millionaire.

Francesca Busca (00:43:45) - It's so yeah and absolutely and I'm there and I'm free. You know it's especially because working from home, especially living with children, it's actually very handy, right? Because you waste any time in commuting and you're always there.

Francesca Busca (00:43:59) - But the bad side of it is that the downside is that you keep doing your work. Like, you know, I work in the laundry and I'll go and do it. And you you're always enslaved by your other hat, you know? Yes, that's.

Else Kramer (00:44:14) - That's the reason I have a studio outside the home. Right. And bike here. I forget.

Francesca Busca (00:44:18) - About it. The laundry, whatever. You know, do it tonight if needs be or you can do it. Actually, why not? You know? How about you do it? It's not that hard. Um, so. Yeah, yeah, it really.

Else Kramer (00:44:29) - You know, you have this physical separation that is probably going to help with that.

Francesca Busca (00:44:34) - And the garden between where I'm planting everything in anything, we're not mowing. We've got the grass up to over our knees. The council of it, unfortunately for the birds, the children love it too, because we kept we keep seeing all these spontaneous flowers. Yeah, because I'm going to see wildflowers.

Francesca Busca (00:44:53) - But I was waiting for a little bit until, you know, the first. And so many are coming up. It's beautiful. Within a week, you see, you know, new ones coming up. It's not really.

Else Kramer (00:45:03) - Good. It's an explosion of colour, which is also, again, I'm sure, very inspiring.

Francesca Busca (00:45:07) - Exactly. So it's beautiful to walk. You know, mind you, we we have our little trail now, me and the dog. We have two different ones, quite frankly. So you can we follow that through grass?

Else Kramer (00:45:20) - So good. Do you have any rituals when you work?

Francesca Busca (00:45:24) - Uh, that's interesting. Uh, if I do, quite frankly, I'm very elastic. I think that's part of what we are really elastic. I can make do with anything. I'm the queen of making do, actually.

Else Kramer (00:45:38) - Even with. I think that is your brand, right? Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes for people to get into a certain state, they use like, Oh, I always have my coffee or whatever.

Else Kramer (00:45:48) - Oh no.

Francesca Busca (00:45:48) - That that's for sure. Yes, yes. Coffee in the morning, that's for sure. I now I need to have done my yoga before.

Else Kramer (00:45:56) - Another issue.

Francesca Busca (00:45:57) - Yeah, that actually has become my morning ritual, both centering. Yes. And I feel so much better after that. I feel like I've already been productive somehow, and I'm ready to start, you know? But otherwise, sometimes I tend to procrastinate. So I have to have 1 or 2 coffees. If I am at the London School of Mosaic or somewhere else, I need to chit chat in between coffees, people.

Else Kramer (00:46:18) - Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:46:18) - Last one to bring it to my table and then I start. And since I'm very fast at what I do, I actually accomplished the same, I think as a normal person. But I talk for two hours, work for two. You know.

Else Kramer (00:46:30) - I was just talking about that when someone else like, ah, I think the way productivity looks on us is completely different, right? Like it will look like we're not doing anything.

Else Kramer (00:46:40) - But still a lot is happening up here.

Francesca Busca (00:46:41) - I think that's the point and that's why I need to be on my own. And that's also why I think it's really good to be in contact with other fellow artists, especially if they're from different practices. And yeah, because medium, you know, because then you exchange and you learn and you just you don't even understand how much you know how many ideas you can gather. But at the same time, I need my space, I need to be on my own. Because actually most of the time I'll just sit there and think, you know, and I need the time to think I need it because that's where everything comes. That's what creation is. It's not the assembly, the the assembly of stuff. It's what you have in your head. Yeah. And before I don't do that. Oh, what if I do that? I want that, You know.

Else Kramer (00:47:25) - You need space, but you also need to be alone. You know, you need to be in that kind of container.

Else Kramer (00:47:31) - I think that's really important. And if you look at that through the lens of old fashioned productivity, people would be like, But that woman is not doing anything. She's just staring out the window, What the hell, right? Maybe.

Francesca Busca (00:47:42) - Actually, it's the most important and it's the most difficult and precious to have especially.

Else Kramer (00:47:47) - Okay. So but what I'm curious about, because a lot of people, especially when they start out, they don't trust this part, whether it's making art or building a business, which I think can also be an art, right? They're like, they don't trust this sitting thinking that things come also from their subconscious, this inner knowing. Have you always trusted that or is that a skill you have deepened?

Francesca Busca (00:48:11) - Okay, so when I was younger, as I said, okay, my parents knew how I was because they a friend of a friend who was a psychologist asked me if I could run some tests, you know, the original IQ test, which I've never done before and I hadn't done up until a few years ago.

Francesca Busca (00:48:30) - And after curiosity I tried the so on. Um, but, and, but they so they knew, but they never told me the results. And because you know to go to my head they wanted me to be, you know, normal but at the same time I wish they did because that would have saved me so much self-doubt. Yeah. And time wasted thinking. No. But if they do it this way, surely they know what they're doing. You know. Ah, I would have had so much more self-confidence and I would have started earlier and I would have been an artist, most likely, you know, ever since.

Else Kramer (00:49:03) - So when did you find out?

Francesca Busca (00:49:05) - At 40. Oh, really? Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:49:08) - Wow. What happened? Yeah.

Francesca Busca (00:49:10) - And that's when I started, you know, with the mosaics.

Else Kramer (00:49:12) - But that's when you realize, did you take. Did you find out about the results? No, no.

Francesca Busca (00:49:17) - No, no, no, no. About that. Oh, okay. I mean, I knew before.

Francesca Busca (00:49:19) - Sorry. No, I thought when I found out what I read. No, no, no.

Else Kramer (00:49:22) - When did you find out?

Francesca Busca (00:49:24) - No, no, no. I think I always knew underneath. And then when you. It's when you start having your own self confidence, probably university.

Else Kramer (00:49:32) - That you were like, hang on.

Francesca Busca (00:49:34) - Yeah. Okay.

Else Kramer (00:49:35) - I don't think I'm normal.

Francesca Busca (00:49:37) - Yeah, there's. Yeah, too many things have happened for me not to be always the one who's wrong. Yeah. Um, so, yeah.

Else Kramer (00:49:45) - I love that though, because for me that took, I think, even longer. Even though I did have the label at a very young age, I remember like meeting my husband and having lots of deep conversations and he used to say the same thing to me. Like a lot of times he always just say, Listen, it's not used crazy. It's the other people who are crazy.

Francesca Busca (00:50:04) - Yeah, it's good to have someone who can tell you that.

Else Kramer (00:50:07) - I know, right? That was such a blessing to have that because up until then I was like, There's something wrong with me and I need to change.

Else Kramer (00:50:15) - And he would be like, No, they're just mad, right? Like, I mean, of course it's not. He didn't mean it that way, but like, as a reframe, you just get to be you. You don't need to become like them.

Francesca Busca (00:50:24) - Yeah, no, I know. So it's for example, my husband is really clever, too. Of course, I could never be with someone who doesn't get me. Right.

Else Kramer (00:50:33) - Okay. So. Okay.

Francesca Busca (00:50:34) - Same.

Else Kramer (00:50:35) - How did you find him? Because, like the most requested topic for the podcast.

Francesca Busca (00:50:39) - Where to find.

Else Kramer (00:50:40) - His relationships. Okay. Is it even possible to, like, have a relationship as a smart woman, specifically?

Francesca Busca (00:50:49) - Well, with him, yes, because it's the opposite of me. Like I'm really quick, but I'm not that deep. Sometimes I get bored if I get to do so, unless it's something that, you know, it's what I'm studying at the moment. Yes. Well, he is slower, but he's much very deep, you know, much deeper.

Francesca Busca (00:51:06) - He go to. Yeah, very thorough. So it's actually we're actually a great team together. Obviously we get on each other's nerves. Yes, just the opposite. But no. And he is amazing and he understands me. He gets me. He gets me. Yeah. All the time. Um, as you know, that's what's important. Like, you might not agree with me, but you understand me.

Else Kramer (00:51:28) - I am also in a very complimentary relationship.

Francesca Busca (00:51:33) - Because otherwise I think you tell each other apart, right?

Else Kramer (00:51:35) - Totally. I mean, just imagining being married to me is a complete nightmare. I'm tired already.

Francesca Busca (00:51:42) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need things. Yeah, yeah.

Else Kramer (00:51:45) - Exactly. And just having that sort of balance. And then, of course, there's going to be, you know, trouble, a little bit of conflict, etcetera, etcetera. But if you are able to navigate that.

Francesca Busca (00:51:57) - Yeah, but we need the conflict too, I think. True. So that I can get on with the rest of the world, you know, like give it to me now 100%.

Else Kramer (00:52:06) - One of the things I had to do like and I'm still working on it, like my husband doesn't like to argue. I love I love to argue. I'm like, come on, fight with me.

Francesca Busca (00:52:17) - Just for the sake of it, please. So it can become again.

Else Kramer (00:52:21) - Useful. Beautiful. But how did you if you want to talk about that, how did you meet each other? How did you find him?

Francesca Busca (00:52:25) - It's funny because we met on the plane.

Else Kramer (00:52:28) - Oh, I love this. This is a great story. I always hear these things. I'm like, that called me. True. Okay.

Francesca Busca (00:52:35) - The busy guy was going home just for the weekend for my best friend's 30th birthday. And I had just decided a few months before that the the person for me didn't exist. So. Yeah, perfectly happy on my own, you know?

Else Kramer (00:52:48) - Yeah. Happy single.

Francesca Busca (00:52:50) - Exactly.

Else Kramer (00:52:51) - Don't need anybody.

Francesca Busca (00:52:52) - I was open. I wasn't looking, you know, I was really relaxed and I was already dressed for the occasion because again, I was going home, I think just 48 hours, 24 hours.

Francesca Busca (00:53:00) - I mean, you know, just for the party that night. And and before going, I was following Udinese within as it was my favorite football team. But you wouldn't really get news, many news here, obviously, as much as you would get what I was coming from. So I had another friend who was coming to the party who would relay the information to me, and that Saturday or Sunday or whatever, he didn't send me the or the one, the update and. Oh yeah. And the previous Sunday. Yes. Sorry. And and so I asked him, so what's going on with Udinese. How did it do? It's like, well listen Fran, if you really cared for it, you should find out yourself because I know you can like. Oh, okay. Better find out. Next. Next time. So here I am, going to the airport, not knowing anything about thinking I'll shoot and looking for the spot around, which is the spot paper, which is, you know, that paint that you can tell a mile away if it is it or not.

Francesca Busca (00:54:01) - And I find one. So I go up to the Gazzetta dello sport. I Excuse me, Really sorry to disturb you, but is there any chance you get You know, you have the results there, so I know what they did and and he was him and say, well, look, I don't think there'll be much in here, but you're more than welcome to look. And so I had a look after that nothing happened. I and when I was working on travelling on my own, I would just sit down, you know, and wait to be the last one to board or whatever. I didn't care which seat I would get and he did the same. So we bought it. We second last and him last and the plane was full. So I ended up by going to the end and there he is coming and I'm like, well, you know, sit here, sit here. So we started chatting and I liked him as a person right away, and we had a very similar background, you know, both in studies, although he's a mathematician.

Else Kramer (00:54:51) - And I'm also married to a mathematician.

Francesca Busca (00:54:55) - Because I have the.

Else Kramer (00:54:56) - Best.

Francesca Busca (00:54:58) - Guy. Don't have patience for this. It's either the world or maths. And I made a choice, right? I mean, very, very I can imagine. I mean, if you do maths, you're like, That's your world. That's it. You're a continue obsession, but you can't do anything else. And anyway, so we talked. He lived abroad in different places as well and you know, he was and, and so we met back in London for a drink.

Else Kramer (00:55:25) - You exchange numbers.

Francesca Busca (00:55:27) - Exchange. Yeah. Sorry. Yes.

Else Kramer (00:55:29) - This is important, people. You need to exchange them.

Francesca Busca (00:55:32) - And of course, because that's how it went. I even ask him to get married after we were living together. You know, like.

Else Kramer (00:55:40) - Well, you proposed.

Francesca Busca (00:55:42) - Yes. Yes.

Else Kramer (00:55:44) - We have so much in common. I also suppose you really.

Francesca Busca (00:55:49) - But how did you do it? Because in my case, I'm not formal at all.

Francesca Busca (00:55:53) - I'm not. We got married in jeans, as I say, you know, with everyone in jeans and the big main square. But because what happened This is funny. We were already living together. I didn't care about marriage, but we had the building manager who is younger than I was, I think, and really traditional. And so always say you and your husband. But your husband, I kept telling him, Look, he's not my husband. He's actually my partner, you know? And every single time he would say, Oh, so why is he not making an honest woman out of you? And I would laugh at first. Then I realized he was serious, you know, whatever. But then it must have worked at the back of my mind because one day I just went up to Claudio, my husband, and said, Well, look, so why are you not making an honest woman out of the difference? We might as well. You know, we bought the house together, which is more of a commitment nowadays.

Francesca Busca (00:56:44) - Yes.

Else Kramer (00:56:45) - Marriage. You can never, never split up again because a mortgage.

Francesca Busca (00:56:50) - What happened to you then was that.

Else Kramer (00:56:52) - Oh, I just also I had a health scare and I really started rethinking. And I told my husband to never ask me to marry him because I thought marriage was so ridiculous. And then I had a health scare which turned out to be luckily not as scary as I thought. And then I started reevaluating. And a really dear friend of mine actually told me, Listen, Elsa, I know you think it's all ridiculous, but you do this for the people who love you so they can celebrate you in your love.

Francesca Busca (00:57:20) - Oh, yeah.

Else Kramer (00:57:22) - And I thought, Yeah, I want that. I want to share that. And yeah, then I knew I had to propose because I forbidden him to like.

Francesca Busca (00:57:31) - I would have never dared.

Else Kramer (00:57:34) - Don't even think about it, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. So funny. So. Okay, so. So listen, for the people listening now, you know, the formula to find love is to, first of all, get to this part and wait patiently.

Francesca Busca (00:57:49) - Wait patiently.

Else Kramer (00:57:51) - Wait or look and make you know, or just, you know, look for mathematicians.

Francesca Busca (00:57:57) - Exactly. Yeah. I would say look for the opposite. And someone who. I mean, he's my best friend. Yeah. To be on my own or to be with him to me is the same thing.

Else Kramer (00:58:09) - That is amazing. That is beautiful. Yeah. To have that ease. Yeah. And just be able to completely be yourself. Yeah. With another human being that is very beautiful and very precious.

Francesca Busca (00:58:20) - Is the same for, you know.

Else Kramer (00:58:22) - Yes. 100%. And also be happy when like not be threatened by somebody else's growth. Right? Like my husband went to art school for a while. He he studied abroad for a while and we were we are both happy for each other when we try something new. I travel on my own. He's like. Like, how dare you?

Francesca Busca (00:58:43) - Yeah, yeah. No, no. Freedom. I mean, if you love somebody, you set them free.

Francesca Busca (00:58:47) - Honestly. Exactly. And it's. A choice to be with each other. You want them to be happy and grow and find their own space. I mean, you would be frustrated if they didn't. Why shouldn't you let them? I mean, absolutely.

Else Kramer (00:58:56) - Exactly. But it's not like that in all relationships I'm told. Haha. Yeah. So being think, but also being so comfortable in yourself. So find someone who's that mature and be that mature person yourself as well, right? That you are able to let other people do.

Francesca Busca (00:59:12) - But I think it's the only thing I'm mature in, quite frankly, because.

Else Kramer (00:59:16) - There's one thing.

Francesca Busca (00:59:17) - I feel like I'm like, Oh, but it's also interesting, as you said, because sometimes the mother is the child. Some other times, you know, I'm the child, he's the father. And most of the time we're actually equals. But, you know, Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:59:29) - Yeah. And I think what you're I'm guessing but correct me if I'm wrong, what you're calling immaturity to me is probably childlike wonder, a sense of experimentation and just being very free and curious in the world.

Francesca Busca (00:59:44) - Yes, that's a good side. The bad side is that I'm also very spontaneous. Yeah. And I don't lie. And to me, lying to my children or to my husband is something I just don't. I cannot do it.

Else Kramer (00:59:55) - You're not capable.

Francesca Busca (00:59:55) - Of it and intellectual intellectually wrong.

Else Kramer (01:00:00) - Like, do you say this as if it's a problem?

Francesca Busca (01:00:02) - Well, it is a problem sometimes because I tell them off right away. Right. You know, I don't hold my tongue sometimes when I should. I mean. Yeah, well, not.

Else Kramer (01:00:12) - It's like I also kind of lie, but also my face cannot lie.

Francesca Busca (01:00:18) - My eyes.

Else Kramer (01:00:19) - Like if someone asked me, Do you like this dress or something? I mean, I cannot lie.

Francesca Busca (01:00:25) - It's doing like, do you want a diplomatic answer or do you want the truth?

Else Kramer (01:00:29) - Yeah. And then they already know. It's so interesting, right? That's some people like I think many of us very smart people are we we're just not really good at lying.

Else Kramer (01:00:39) - Our brains just like, I don't know, there's like this. This. Yeah.

Francesca Busca (01:00:44) - I think it's also part of the same sense of. Right, like, of, you know, the sense of what's right and what's wrong. Yeah. Injustice is something that's kind of really, really hard to digest and understand. And that's why I find it very hard to read the paper or get the news. I really suffer. Like, I don't know, I think I don't know what it is. It's like I think you should be empathic towards things and.

Else Kramer (01:01:11) - And not everybody is.

Francesca Busca (01:01:13) - It's like being a child, you know, not understanding. Not taking them with the right cynicism that the adults develop. But then at the same time, I think developing that is what stops you from changing, understanding where you're going wrong and what needs to be done and changed. And then, I mean, you know, it's like children when you tell them something that happens and they go, but they're so wrong. Why? Why did you like.

Francesca Busca (01:01:35) - Well, because this is how the world goes. Because Because the world is unfair. True. But that shouldn't be the answer.

Else Kramer (01:01:41) - Yeah, I think for me the answer is not something like, Oh, this is how the world goes. What I what has been super useful for me is like. There are some things I will just never understand, and that's okay, right? Because I keep hurting myself in trying to understand something which to me is completely incomprehensible.

Francesca Busca (01:02:01) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something you don't want to understand, actually.

Else Kramer (01:02:04) - Exactly. Right. I don't want this to be. To make sense. Yeah. Don't want it. And my brain is trying to make it make sense.

Francesca Busca (01:02:11) - Yeah. No, no, it doesn't. It's like when people say, oh, but, you know, keeping abreast of information, everything that goes on in the world is essential. And then you're thinking, I don't agree in the sense. Yes, the big picture, of course. But what the prime minister says, you know, today, it's like, is there any anything I can do to control it or to help it? I want to know.

Francesca Busca (01:02:32) - But it's out of my control. It sounds if.

Else Kramer (01:02:35) - It's not useful to you, right?

Francesca Busca (01:02:38) - Yes.

Else Kramer (01:02:39) - But think also for you.

Francesca Busca (01:02:41) - And focus on what I can.

Else Kramer (01:02:42) - Exactly. Exactly. Instead of getting very upset about all the things that make you feel powerless. Exactly. I think that is such a massive cause of stress for people. They focus on the area where they have no power and they no longer see where they can have an impact and can make a difference and just get completely paralyzed and then think. Oh, whatever. You know. There's nothing I can do. We're all going to die. And now very depressed. Yeah. Mind you.

Francesca Busca (01:03:10) - You know, I alternate between these stages of complete optimism, you know, and doo doo doo.

Else Kramer (01:03:15) - And I think you're also converting that frustration with the state of the world. And, you know, that energy you're channeling into your art.

Francesca Busca (01:03:24) - Yeah. Of course I need. I need to have some surrender. You know, to find an outlet.

Else Kramer (01:03:32) - And I think most people I speak with and the same goes for me, like, who are creators, right? Um, we are driven by frustration in a way. We are driven also by wonder. Think it's not just frustration, but also for something like. But it's ridiculous that it's like this. Yeah, come on, let's change it. Right? That kind of energy. But instead of just sitting there and hate this, this sucks, right? That is not. I could never be in that energy. Or at least. Well, okay, let's be honest. I can be in for 15 minutes, but then I get bored. Like I need to go do something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Do you, um, let's. Let's talk a little bit about if you want to. Do you. Think that the way you raise your children is different because you are. You have such a smart mind.

Francesca Busca (01:04:27) - Okay. I don't know if that's because of that or because I am.

Francesca Busca (01:04:30) - I don't really. I don't care what other people think.

Else Kramer (01:04:35) - That is a superpower.

Francesca Busca (01:04:37) - Yes, but not to say I don't care about other people. No, just it wouldn't influence. I mean, I listen to them, but. I don't do something to please other people. I do something because I think it's right. And if you tell me that you think it's not right, I listen to your reasons. If I agree with some of them, then I'll change. But because I believe that you are right, You know I'm saying exactly because.

Else Kramer (01:04:57) - You like my argument. Otherwise you learn and you're happy to change your mind if someone makes a good point.

Francesca Busca (01:05:02) - Yeah, exactly. Thank you for know for the tip. Actually, I disagree and I'll keep. Oh, thank you. And you know, but so, so basically my children, as I say, I don't lie to them. They know exactly what I know. Usually, um, my husband says that sometimes I should lay things a little softer.

Francesca Busca (01:05:23) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:05:25) - A little less.

Francesca Busca (01:05:25) - Take it, say. And for example, you know, we all became vegan after watching Seaspiracy, Uh, mind you. Oh, and there. And then we looked at each other in the eyes and thinking, okay, so we're vegan, right? From tomorrow. Yes. So. And I fact checked as well what it was said. Why, it's even worse. All right. Oh, it's even worse than what Tabrizi says in the documentary. I would recommend anyone and everyone to see it, actually. But it does change your life forever anyway. Same time. So you know, it's their own choice. They know. They know. We also watched the few afterwards. They it's what's hard for them though. Obviously. It's that they are now in teenage years where especially my daughter wants to belong and you know, they are the only two plus another one. Three vegans at school. Really.

Else Kramer (01:06:20) - Wow.

Francesca Busca (01:06:20) - Yes. Some vegetarians. But and so she goes around saying that she's vegetarian because it's cooler and it's more understanding.

Francesca Busca (01:06:29) - It makes it less weird. But I don't care. She can say whatever, but at the same time, I tell her, don't you want to actually change the world? You know what a difference it makes if you just tell people what you are, you know? And why should you be, you know, hide the fact that you don't want to harm people because people animals because you think they have the same rights, you know, and the sentient beings and because you know it's good for the planet, You know why? Why should you be scared of your own kindness and strength? Because it is.

Else Kramer (01:06:56) - But she has a teenage brain that wants to belong to the group, right? It's all biology. It makes perfect sense.

Francesca Busca (01:07:02) - Exactly. So for a few years, I know she's going to switch it off, you know, in this regard at least, and then it's going to come back. Yeah, but also, for example, my mom has a wild chickens running around the garden, sleeping on the tree.

Francesca Busca (01:07:15) - And when the and she has the woods at the back. So sometimes the foxes come or other animals and they, you know, exterminate.

Else Kramer (01:07:22) - They're not vegetarians.

Francesca Busca (01:07:24) - Yeah. No, but anyway they have little, you know, fox cubs to maintain. It's fine. But if they leave some behind we eat them. Yeah. Because they are happy chickens. You know, we're not harming anyone and we're not wasting that very precious food for us. Also, the the eggs they lay, we eat because they are there, you know, happy eggs, happy hands with their fecundity, you know, And they they are broody. They'll will let them do that of course. Um, and also they have different taste anyway onto this. So as I say, we, you know, we are flexible obviously.

Else Kramer (01:08:02) - And exactly again going back to. Right like it if we get into this kind of oh I have to get everything right, I have to fit in this perfect box with my activism.

Francesca Busca (01:08:13) - And you will be completely unhappy.

Francesca Busca (01:08:16) - Yeah, Yeah. So, you know, reducing already is such a big thing. Exactly.

Else Kramer (01:08:23) - Yeah. And just doing your part and being aware and making change. Yeah. What do you think? Like looking at your art? What is next for you? Have you got any plans for the next couple of years?

Francesca Busca (01:08:34) - Oh my God, I've got so many. Okay, so there are a few projects going. We're in Italy actually with some the Maelstrom project, um, whereby the marine biologists that go into these cruises and into these projects where they measure pollution and they get data and respect too many things basically. And they also run projects to reduce pollution, plastic pollution in the, in the oceans, in the rivers. They are, you know, building some very interesting actually devices to either collect or or even prevent, you know, the plastic from going into it. And apart of the various partners that actually run this project. And part of what they do is also, um, sensibilities in people, right? And that's what comes into it.

Francesca Busca (01:09:32) - So we're developing a nice project with them. Actually 2024 I think is the deadline. Um, and I'll be very interesting because I want to go and see what they do, you know.

Else Kramer (01:09:43) - To learn all about their things and you'll bring get to be happy again.

Francesca Busca (01:09:48) - I was so glad they proposed this, you know, um, then I've, I have actually. I want to start doing big works which are big is.

Else Kramer (01:09:59) - Your work now give us like a ballpark.

Francesca Busca (01:10:02) - That's the point. So usually the artwork is my. Do you know the art for trash projects for the offices? I sell them by 50 by 50 boards also to give one price for them all. It's all proportionate. But then I started doing bigger pieces as long as I can carry them or taken by electric car, fine with them. But that's why I'm working section. So point is that with the mosaic what you would do, you would work in sections and then you assemble them together, usually in reverse. So anyway, I don't want to go into details, but you know, with, with what I use is much harder to work in sections.

Francesca Busca (01:10:40) - Um, especially because I work direct. I cannot work in direct, so I have to work directly on the boards. So it's the actions that should be cut unless I work on mesh and then stick that to the board. But anyway, um, so I'm now working on big projects and I need to find a way to section them so.

Else Kramer (01:11:00) - That.

Francesca Busca (01:11:01) - They can be carried and become eco friendly as well in the, in the installation.

Else Kramer (01:11:07) - Yes.

Francesca Busca (01:11:08) - Um, part.

Else Kramer (01:11:09) - Yeah. And you can do massive walls.

Francesca Busca (01:11:12) - Yeah. And that would be so much fun. I mean I can do them directly on their or with the mesh and stick them to the wall and that's fine but that's their permanent. I need to find some, you know, ways where they're not permanent. They can be moved easily from wall to wall. And that's really interesting. I've got.

Else Kramer (01:11:26) - Super fun. Problems solved.

Francesca Busca (01:11:28) - Yeah. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:11:29) - Because again, I think one of the reasons you're having so much fun with this is there are so many parameters, right, that are constantly changing, right? The material parameters, the location, the type of rubbish, the size, like all the things, and then your brain having to solve for all that.

Else Kramer (01:11:49) - Of course, it never gets boring.

Francesca Busca (01:11:50) - Yeah, no. And it's fun because every time I walk into the office, I'm like, Yeah, okay, So yes, we can use this and this and this like, don't you have anything else? Like, you know, something that happens?

Else Kramer (01:11:59) - Where's the rest of your rubbish? Show me exactly what.

Francesca Busca (01:12:03) - Else do you produce? Rubbish. Is there some, you know, project like a department on the side which runs something different?

Else Kramer (01:12:10) - And when do you think about the history of Mosaic? Um, how do you see yourself in that, like, continuous line? Like I've, I have been very lucky, actually. At the end of last year, I did a tour of Ravenna, saw some amazing stuff. What? What do you think? Like this is such an old, old art form, right? And it's such a beautiful art form. It's so accessible. You do not need to learn how to mix paint, right? You don't need to in that sense.

Else Kramer (01:12:38) - Of course, you can buy the stones, but as you're showing, you can create mosaics with anything.

Francesca Busca (01:12:44) - Yes, absolutely.

Else Kramer (01:12:45) - What do you see as the future of mosaics?

Francesca Busca (01:12:48) - So actually, the future mosaic, I think I think actually will keep with the traditional side of it also, because if you want to do flooring, for example, you know, that's what you would do. You would use stones or ceramic.

Else Kramer (01:13:01) - Or you could just do resin. Right.

Francesca Busca (01:13:05) - But yes, yes. But resin is not really eco friendly unless it's really true. How do you do that? So, you know, because you're actually bringing up something very interesting. I thought of.

Else Kramer (01:13:16) - You thought.

Francesca Busca (01:13:16) - Of doing some pieces, you know, sometimes you find and then using the resin pieces because actually when it when it dries, it can have some, you know, nice colors and it's not clear. So you can use that. But anyway, that's the to a different but then you would have to level it you know for flooring it's they have to be level no.

Francesca Busca (01:13:36) - Anyway so I see the traditional side of it continuing but I also see what I do. Hopefully it will become more and more interesting, you know, more and more used because also I see that, um, so there is it's the British Association of Modern Mosaic in this country and they do, you know, a forum each year they do prompts. So basically the, you know, some prompts they and they ask me to do a few and I did 4 or 5 and then they had workshops on them and they said that they were very popular during lockdown, especially you would do them online. So it was a very good idea that they had to do these prompts and work. Yeah, but they also ask me to go as a speaker for the forum they will have this October. Because it will be called pushing the boundaries.

Else Kramer (01:14:25) - I love.

Francesca Busca (01:14:26) - It. So I actually think regardless of what I do, but just using reusing other stuff, like whether it's crockery or other things, it's it's in the charts.

Francesca Busca (01:14:35) - I think it will be more and more because it's actually fun for music. It really is. You know, you can find some beautiful colours, beautiful designs or drawings and you know, whether it's a rose that you want to add, you know, in the middle of the mosaic or just call it peace or something that's slightly, you know, has a different shape. Yeah, it's the perfect means.

Else Kramer (01:14:58) - I love how your brain has taken you from low.

Francesca Busca (01:15:03) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:15:03) - Imagine right to this amazing way of being in a world, being an artist, making money and making the world a better place and creating beautiful things. Right. So good. Is there. Do you have, like, a dream location? Like, I don't know. I'm thinking Saint Paul's The Dome. Or like, is there something where you like, Oh, I would love to create a mosaic here.

Francesca Busca (01:15:25) - I want to be the Tate and just create.

Else Kramer (01:15:27) - A modern.

Francesca Busca (01:15:28) - Permanent mosaic there. Yes, Tate Modern.

Else Kramer (01:15:31) - Are we talking the big hole or.

Else Kramer (01:15:33) - Oh, the.

Francesca Busca (01:15:33) - Big hole would be.

Else Kramer (01:15:34) - Amazing.

Francesca Busca (01:15:35) - To give me but have permanent.

Else Kramer (01:15:38) - Yeah, that is a problem. Yeah.

Francesca Busca (01:15:41) - Love that. Yeah. I mean yeah they could do some you know mosaics. We do have a do not do that so fun. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:15:53) - Thank you so much for this. I think it's been super inspiring and I can't wait to share your artworks in the link. So anybody who wants to see your work, see these explosions of colour and be inspired, maybe you start creating yourself. Um, check the show notes for the link to Francesca's amazing work. So much.

Francesca Busca (01:16:14) - It was fun. Thank you. I keep following.