Episode 79 - Doctor Octopus on the Power of Nonlinear Thinking

I am delighted to introduce to you, Perry Knoppert, aka Dr. Octopus

Perry is pretty hard to pin down.

He is an artist, he has worked in conventional industries.
He's lived in China and Belgium.
He's been homeless.

 He has ADHD and dyslexia.

But most importantly he has founded a community I think you'll enjoy and want to join: the Octopus movement, a global network of non-linear thinkers.

By now, the network has grown to almost 3000 members from over 63 countries - and they're approaching problem-solving in unconventional and creative ways.

In this interview we cover a very wide range of topics, including :

• parenting neurodivergent kids and fighting the school system
• having dyslexia
• plants, 
• poetry
• drugs
• art
• not accepting the status quo
• mushrooms and the mycelium  
• how to build a community and interestingly whether or not we should gate-keep it. 
• teacher torture
• teaching nonlinear thinking in schools, 

and all the things we would love to see differently in this world and how we can be agents for change. 

I'm sure this interview with Perry aka dr. Octopus will inspire you as much as it has inspired me. 

Resources mentioned in this Episode:

You can find out all about the Octopus Movement (and join it) here:
https://www.theoctopusmovement.org/

At the end of the podcast, I ask Perry about people who inspire him and who deserve a lot more attention and one of the people he mentions is Haley Joy - you can find her website here: https://hayleyjoy.com/

Ready to learn how to Manage your Smart Mind? Then download my free 'Mapping Your Unique Brain' Workbook. Go to:
https://www.coachkramer.org/brainmap to get access.

Are you interested in working with me? Click here.

Come say hi on LinkedIn |Insta | Twitter | FB

Chapters

• 0:00 Else Kramer introduces her coaching program and invites listeners to join.
• 1:56 Else Kramer introduces Perry Knoppert, also known as Dr. Octopus, and his work with the Octopus Movement.
• 7:00 Dr. Octopus expresses frustration with the lack of questioning and curiosity in linear thinking and the need to break out of the "fish tank" of conventional thinking.
• 13:02 Perry Knoppert talks about the food crisis and how supermarkets are making insane profits while people struggle to buy groceries.
• 13:55 Perry Knoppert shares his experience of fighting the school system for his dyslexic daughter and the need for non-linear managers to challenge the system.
• 20:31 Neurodiversity and superpowers: Else Kramer and Perry Knoppert discuss the binary thinking around neurodiversity and the need for a more nuanced approach that acknowledges both the challenges and strengths of neurodivergent individuals.
• 26:10 Perry Knoppert talks about the Octopus Movement, a community of non-linear thinkers that he founded. He explains why he doesn't like the term "community" and prefers to call it the "mycelium."
• 32:38 Poetry and language: Perry Knoppert and Else Kramer discuss the non-linearity of language and how poetry can open up the gates of non-linear thinking in the brain. They also talk about the confusion that can arise from language ambiguity.
• 44:20 Dr. Octopus shares his experience of being homeless and how people's reactions to it made it a problem. They discuss the need for nonlinear thinking and how the school system fails neurodivergent kids.
• 55:49 The speakers discuss the harm of the school system on neurodivergent children and the need for parents to support their children's individuality.
• 1:02:28 The speakers talk about the importance of allowing children to discover their own path and combine different interests to find their own success.
• 1:15:15 Contributing on Your Own Terms: Else Kramer and Perry Knoppert discuss the importance of giving people the opportunity to contribute on their own terms and how it can lead to a more fulfilling life.
• 1:22:19 Money as fuel: The speakers talk about the role of money as fuel and how it allows one to move forward and create energy. They also discuss the importance of creating something that works for oneself as a starting point and then adding fuel to it.
• 1:27:24 Risking it and receiving help: The speakers discuss the need to find security in oneself rather than things and taking a leap of faith. They also talk about the trouble with receiving help and the need to be open to receiving it without feeling dependent
• 1:37:06 The importance of art: Perry Knoppert and Else Kramer discuss the importance of art in human well-being and how it reflects our intelligence and creativity.
• 1:43:27 Rituals and Routines: Else Kramer asks Perry Knoppert about his rituals and routines, including his favourite pen, notebook, and nail polish, and the significance of a burning candle and a Buddhist bracelet.

Transcript

Else Kramer (00:00:01) - Hello there, smart human. I have a question for you. Would you like to get clear on the one thing you want to focus your precious time, talent, and energy on? Would you, in addition, also like to develop a sustainable strategy to make that one thing a reality? And then on top of that, would you like to get 12 months of support to help you step by step, actually create it? Then I have something perfect for you, shamelessly smart. On July 3rd, a group of 16 fast brained humans is going to start on a 12 month journey to build or create their one thing. And being in this coaching container will give you many things. First of all, it's an incredibly affordable way to get coached by me. Yay. But it's also a great way to network with and learn from other smart humans, and it helps you to over 12 months, not only build your thing or create it, but, and I think this is way more important to transform into someone who creates what they want in the world. Now, if this resonates with you, you can either send me a message or go to coach kramer.org and click on the banner at the top of the website to learn all about shamelessly smart. But don't wait too long because there's only 16 spots available and some are already gone. Can't wait to welcome you in.

Else Kramer (00:01:56) - Welcome to the Managing the Smart Mind podcast with your host, coach Kramer. This is episode 79, Dr. Octopus on the Power of Nonlinear Thinking.

Else Kramer (00:02:19) - Hello, smart human. I am delighted to introduce to you Perry Knoper, also known as Dr. Octopus. Now it's pretty hard to pin Perry down. He is an artist. He has worked in conventional spheres, conventional industries. He's lived in China, in Belgium, and he's been homeless, , so many things. In addition to this, he has a D h D, dyslexia, um, a super fun brain. And he has founded something which I think you'll very much enjoy and wanna join the octopus movement, a global network of non-linear thinkers. Now, the network has grown to, I think it's now almost 3000 members from over 63 coun countries. And they're approaching problem solving in unconventional and creative ways, um, bringing unique creativity to entrepreneurship, the arts, other careers, all the things. And in this interview, which we've beautifully sort of allowed to evolve, we talk about so many things. Um, parenting neurodivergent kids, and fighting the school system, having dyslexia, plants, poetry, drugs, art , not accepting the status quo, um, mushrooms and the mycelium, and how to build a community. And interestingly, whether or not we should gate keep it, we look at teacher torture, teaching non-air thinking in schools, and all the things that we would love to see differently in this world, and how we can be an agent for change. I hope you'll enjoy en enjoy this interview with Dr. Octopus.

Else Kramer (00:04:23) - Okay, so here is the man himself with the many arms , Dr. Octopus, very knoper. Welcome to the podcast. And I wanted to do this a little bit differently, um, because I just said to you in our pre chat, like, I don't think I need to kind of put you at ease, , you know, by doing a slow introduction, we could just dive in. So I'm gonna start with asking, what is your biggest frustration? What makes you super mad?

Perry Knoppert (00:04:57) - No, I'm not frozen. I was thinking, um, , what makes me super

Else Kramer (00:05:00) - Mad? And take your time. This is not like, you know,

Perry Knoppert (00:05:08) - So many thoughts. Um, yeah, just

Else Kramer (00:05:10) - Listen, take your time. People can wait. And I think I'm just gonna say a thing. While you're thinking silence is so underappreciated and time for thinking,

Perry Knoppert (00:05:25) - There are two thoughts. There are, there are things that makes me wonder why for fucks sake, can I use that kind of language?

Else Kramer (00:05:38) - Yes, you can say podcast. I'm good

Perry Knoppert (00:05:40) - Talking. Um, and the other thought is I'm not mad. Mm-hmm. . So it's, um, so you're at, I understand your question, but I'm, I'm immediately thinking, not that I don't get angry, but it's a space that I'm almost never at. And, and what I do find interesting, fascinating. And that's the course of that, that's the direction where I'm at sometimes when I'm thinking really is, and of course I'm going back to the boxed thinking, the linearity. Mm-hmm. , I'm so amazed why people are not asking questions. Ah.

Else Kramer (00:06:34) - So you are, you are, first of all, you switch from frustration or maybe you don't even get to frustration. You go straight to curiosity, which is, I think a superpower, which is what I teach so many of my clients. And then you go to the curiosity, why aren't they asking questions about what? About all the things about something specific,

Perry Knoppert (00:07:00) - Specific? Well, I'm, I'm wondering, you know, I, I have this theory that we all have non-linear brains, and then we go to school, and then we get born. You know, you're a little baby, you're very non-linear, and then your parents are maybe very linear. And then the shit happens already, and then you're constrained in thoughts that creates your reality. And I find it fascinating that that space in between what we think is reality mm-hmm. Is a real reality for me.

Else Kramer (00:07:33) - Yes. Oh my God. Because I can't believe we're here already. Do you know, like I, I am a philosopher, right? , I have a degree in philosophy. So what is reality? Can we even know it? And how are we colored by? How is our experience of the world colored by our thinking and what can we not see, basically because of the way we're thinking? I love this. Exactly. Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:07:57) - And, and that gets me frustrated sometimes that people, it feels to me that they're like a goldfish in their little tank. Mm-hmm. . And, and that's it. You know? And then I, and I, and I see things and I'm, and I'm just getting curious. And I'm not saying that I'm doing everything right, but I'm, you know, I have this movement. I have many people in the group, and they're all fascinating and non leaning or weird and, and fantastic. And we look at the world also with this is the normal world, and we're the weirdos. And then we turn it around, and then we say, wait a second. Yeah, maybe we're normal and they're the weirdos, you know, and, and removing ourselves out of that bubble or that fish tank or whatever. And I find that fascinating. So I used to be in that fish tank as well, and I could be very frustrated with myself and with others. But now being in this space where I see things in linear, non-linear fashion

Else Kramer (00:09:05) - Mm-hmm.

Perry Knoppert (00:09:07) - It opened up a whole new universe for

Else Kramer (00:09:09) - Me. It's pretty fun. Right, right.

Perry Knoppert (00:09:11) - . It's like, wait a second.

Else Kramer (00:09:14) - But this also takes me to something I, um, heard you say on a podcast, which I, which really resonated with me. And I think with, with the people I, uh, work with, is that, quote unquote your people, right? The non-linear thinkers, the octopi, whatever, what is your preferred term for them?

Perry Knoppert (00:09:34) - Octopi or octopus? But the, the correct pearl is octopuses, but octopuses sounds so

Else Kramer (00:09:43) - . That's hard, man.

Perry Knoppert (00:09:44) - Octopuses,

Else Kramer (00:09:45) - Weird pitting. Octopuses.

Perry Knoppert (00:09:47) - Octopi. I prefer octopi, but people, language freaks don't freak

Else Kramer (00:09:50) - Out. I even took glatter, but I would, I would've seriously put money on that. Being octopi, let's just,

Perry Knoppert (00:09:56) - Octopi sounds so much better.

Else Kramer (00:09:57) - Engineer octopi

Perry Knoppert (00:09:58) - And we older people in the octopus movement, octopus, because we're ah, we're like activists.

Else Kramer (00:10:04) - Love

Perry Knoppert (00:10:04) - It. You know, in fighting for, for cool things, innovation and change in the better world and, and everything without being boxed. Yes. So I like the octas very

Else Kramer (00:10:15) - Close. Okay. So the octopus, something you said about them resonated with me, which was they care about so much more than just themselves.

Perry Knoppert (00:10:22) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:10:23) - Right. And I think a lot of it's the same with a lot of smart humans. I think there's a massive overlap, uh, if not a complete overlap  mm-hmm.  with the octopus, but they're like, can't you see what you're doing to the planet? Can't you see how, how horrible you're being to your employees? Can't you see that this is not going to end well? Right. We just kind of, I'm gonna do a podcast on this at some stage, the Cassandra syndrome, right. You see what's coming, you try to warn people, but they're like, nah, we're fine. Right? That kind of, I, you know, that frustration there is this goldfish and they have no idea that, you know, the, the owner's gonna go on holiday and the goldfish is gonna end down the toilet, basically.

Perry Knoppert (00:11:06) - Well, I, I think bigger picture, I think linearity is in chapter 11, I need to explain that. Chapter 11 is in, in the United States, when your company goes bankrupt, you go into chapter 11 first until you get killed. And, and chapter 11 is like, okay, stop. We, we wait, we stop. Clients don't pay, you know, we are not buying any new things. We put, we stop everything. We sit down,

Else Kramer (00:11:31) - You freeze all the assets,

Perry Knoppert (00:11:32) - Freeze everything. Yeah. Sit down, take your accountants, your lawyers, your senior management, how are we going to solve this? Yeah. And, and for me, linearity in the world is in chapter 11 with everything that's happening in the world with AI as its biggest thing that's happening right now.

Else Kramer (00:11:52) - There's, I also have a card for that. . Yeah, there's a card for that.

Perry Knoppert (00:11:55) - And, and I think we need to look at the linearity of life. I, I think we need to dive into that. I think it's in te 11. I think we need to stop it. I just saw a post on LinkedIn and we got a many, many, many likes, thousands of likes. And he's so right. This is Dutch, dude, I don't know. Someone reposted it and he, and he's in Spain and he, and he is saying, I don't get it. The Dutch cucumbers that are here in the Spanish supermarket are cheaper than the cucumbers in the Netherlands.

Else Kramer (00:12:27) - Hmm. Doesn't make sense. Doesn't

Perry Knoppert (00:12:29) - Make sense. Yeah. Right. And then someone's response was, well,

Else Kramer (00:12:34) - Let me explain , let me

Perry Knoppert (00:12:35) - Explain. I know. Yeah. Not asking questions just immediately, you know, this is the, how it works with transportation and this and that, and then la la la you know, and I'm always wondering what is happening. We, so many people are in difficulty in the Netherlands, if I look at the Netherlands, but all over the world. Yeah, for sure. In, in, in buying their grocery shopping

Else Kramer (00:13:02) - UK

Perry Knoppert (00:13:03) - Food crisis people. Yeah. Food massive. We're not talking about it. And the supermarkets have never made so much money as right now. It's insane. And nobody's talking about it. It's insane. Yeah. And that's the linearity, what I think is in chapter three 11. We cannot just go on with shareholder value and make more money and more money. People can pay their bills anymore.

Else Kramer (00:13:27) - And the banks, right. Like massive, massive profit, ab and amro, like so many Dutch banks, insane profits, but they pay you like zero interest on your savings, . It's fascinating. Yeah, it is, it is fascinating. And it's, uh, you know, that takes me to another topic, which is like systems and system thinking. And we're so stuck in those systems. And then someone, you know, whenever you ask a question about the system, someone sort of raised their hand and says, let me explain to you how the system works, how, how

Perry Knoppert (00:13:55) - The system works. Yes,

Else Kramer (00:13:56) - Yes. So I can keep us all in the box because then we have this full sense of security. We think we can kind of predict what's gonna happen. I thought Covid would cure us of that, but it obviously hasn't, right?

Perry Knoppert (00:14:08) - No, yeah. That's fascinating. Right? Yeah. Let me tell you how the system works. Oh, I now understand what, how the system works, then it's fine.

Else Kramer (00:14:17) - Yeah, of course. That is not a problem right now. I know how the system works, . I will just lie down and take it. That's weird.

Perry Knoppert (00:14:23) - I, I have three neurodiverse kids. Yeah, right. One of them, my, my youngest one has severe dyslexia like me. That's fun. Reading and writing is a challenge. Will always be a challenge with me. You can't cure these people. Okay. So, and then there is the system, and the system is school. And then the school is saying, you know, she has to practice. And then they're giving advice without knowing what's really going on. And then they, and then I go back to them and then I say, listen, you know, is this, is this question, is this the smartest thing to do?  really help my daughter. Right? I dunno,

Else Kramer (00:15:02) - This is actually helpful,

Perry Knoppert (00:15:03) - Perry. Let me explain the system to you. Yeah. Yes. And I'm laughing.

Else Kramer (00:15:08) - Exactly.

Perry Knoppert (00:15:09) - I even had to go to court. So I went into the inner circle of the system. Mm-hmm.

Else Kramer (00:15:15) - . Oh, you actually took the school to court?

Perry Knoppert (00:15:18) - Yeah. Oh no, the, my, yeah. Complicated. Okay. I was no story. Could

Else Kramer (00:15:23) - You give us the digest? Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:15:24) - But my daughter was kicked out of school. She was an international school, had to go to the darts department because of her dyslexia. And she couldn't keep up and school couldn't do anything to help her, which I found weird. And I, and I, and we just moved and everything was very busy, lots of things going on. So I said to the school, let's just wait and see what happens. Let's just serve the wave Yeah. For the coming two years. And then take a decision. Many people around me did, didn't agree with me. So I went to court, talked to the judge, to the head of the system. And the judge was amazing. I, the judge was absolutely fantastic. It's, we had a conversation for an hour and the judge said, I don't know what to do. I thought I was brilliant from a judge to say, I don't know what to do. Yeah. And to, and then finally she said, let's talk, let's ask child services. So if we don't know what to do, we always can rely on the system. So she asked the system child services, what do you think? And this 24 year old just came fresh from colleagues, no experience whatsoever. Poor thing. And she said, well, if you look at this situation, then school really understands because that's the system.

Else Kramer (00:16:41) - They're the experts, they're

Perry Knoppert (00:16:43) - The expert. And dad is emotionally

Else Kramer (00:16:47) - Attached. Right. He's not neutral. He can,

Perry Knoppert (00:16:50) - He's not neutral, see

Else Kramer (00:16:51) - Clearly.

Perry Knoppert (00:16:52) - Right. So we need to follow the school's advice. Yeah. And then the judge said, okay, that's what we will do. And we can only look back at this a few years from now and then say, was this a good decision or not? Brilliant judge, I was very, even though I lost, I was very happy because, you know, see, really put everything out there and not just, okay, this is the system. Bam. Within five minutes done.

Else Kramer (00:17:19) - Yeah. Go back into the system. Shut up. Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:17:21) - Fascinating. You see? Yeah. It's possible. And that's why I'm always saying I'm advocating for a new job in the world. It's the non-linear manager. And that non-linear manager should be everywhere at school, at the government, at the company saying, wait, let's, let's ship down the system for a, for a bit. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:17:46) - And the system thinking

Perry Knoppert (00:17:47) - And look of what's really happening and let's ask some questions and maybe we can help this person, project situation, whatever, by disconnecting it from the system and look at it in a human way and enter that emptiness in between systems and thoughts and go there and say, but this is the healthy thing to do.

Else Kramer (00:18:14) - And maybe like take in also some things that are ephemeral, like emotions, like how people feel. Right. Exactly. Which is so hard to do in a system. Cause it's so hard to quantify that you can't, you can't make any rules around it and you can't make any policy around it. But it's such a real thing if everybody in your company or in your school feels miserable. Or even if 20% feel miserable and you're not able to take that into account in any way. You're just like, whoa. Yeah. You know, that's, you know, that's too bad. Then

Perry Knoppert (00:18:46) - That's how the system works.

Else Kramer (00:18:48) - Yes. That's how the system works. That's how the system works. You know, you're just too different or you're just too dot, dot dot. Which

Perry Knoppert (00:18:55) - Okay, and I get it. You know, the bell curve is there for a reason. Yes. So for 80% it's okay that the system works. Yeah. Yep. Right? Yep. But what about these 20 to maybe now 30%? Yes.

Else Kramer (00:19:09) - I think that's another interesting thing, right? We always thought, okay, so neuro divergence people, uh, maybe 20%. And the more and more of us are standing up and kind of coming out or discovering that maybe we're not complete failure, we just have a different brain. Mm-hmm. , I'm like, yeah, 20% is a very conservative estimate. , it's gonna be a lot more. But we've just all, not all of us, but so many of us have been hiding and working so hard to fit in and very high cost to ourselves and our sanity and our, even our physical health, I think. And I think finally that is kind of coming apart, right? And people are like, oh, hang on. I'm not the only one. And I, I think that's one of the things I love about your movement, sort of validating that, you know, yes, you're very different, but that doesn't mean you don't have a right to exist. And also there are very many other people like you and there's a

Perry Knoppert (00:20:07) - Low count and we find you extra fascinating. Not because of superpowers. That's a little bit the linear approach to neurodiversity that sometimes I'm wondering if we need to do that, you know? Oh, you have neurodiversity? Oh yeah. Superpowers. Everybody

Else Kramer (00:20:22) - Has. Okay. No, listen, I am gonna pause you there cuz I do wanna talk about that. I think it's important because I have a lot to say about this too. I have opinions.

Perry Knoppert (00:20:30) - Go for it.

Else Kramer (00:20:31) - I think, again, this is very what you call linear. I call it binary thinking, right? It's like, either it's awful to have a d ADHD or it's a superpower and it's amazing. And I'm like, come on, people keep real. Right? Like, it's like parts of it suck sometimes. I hate my brain. I'm like, if I, sometimes I water my plants and I very cleverly keep the tab running while I feel the the little thing, um, I used to water them with. And then I go off and do something else. Well, guess what happens?

Perry Knoppert (00:21:00) -  and the water seal running and

Else Kramer (00:21:01) - Running. I flu my office, right?

Perry Knoppert (00:21:03) - What the hell? Yes. Do

Else Kramer (00:21:04) - I love this? No. Is that

Perry Knoppert (00:21:06) - A superpower?

Else Kramer (00:21:08) - No. Right? So it's such a binary way of thinking. It's not useful. It can be empowering to say, listen, we have things that suck and we have things that are amazing, right? Like superheroes. And it can be kind of a sort of pers uh, shift of perspective or a reframe that can make us feel better if we were feeling awful about ourselves and only seeing the negative things. Right? So it can be sort of, the pendulum swings the other way and we adjust the way of thinking. But to view it only in like, oh, we're amazing. We're like the new superpowers. No, no, that's my,

Perry Knoppert (00:21:40) - And, and listen, if, if you have neurodiversity and you have some superpowers, you can be still an asshole. And it's not because Oh my god, right? So

Else Kramer (00:21:48) - Hundred percent.

Perry Knoppert (00:21:49) - It's, it's weird to use one system to talk about the other system. Yes. That's for me how it feels now.

Else Kramer (00:21:55) - It's a similar kind of oppression

Perry Knoppert (00:21:57) - Where, you know, everybody wants to be liked, everybody wants to be seen, and then you're wired in a different way. So you're adjusting yourself, you're adjusting your own expectations, you're masking. And that's something we need to talk about. Yeah. So it's, and I find that fascinating. So I talk about neurodiversity in the octopus movement, but it's not a neurodiverse diversity movement because for me, that is too much boxed again, because so many people could have a label of neurodiversity, but will never have that label because they, they never get tested or they're not into that space, but they still belong there. But because they didn't do anything, they're not there. You see how complicated that becomes. Yes. I'm just thinking we're all different. And then I also talked to some doctor one day and I said, neuro neurodiversity, can we dive into that word? I love language and I think words are very linear as well. So neurodiversity in its linearity is contradictional in in the word itself. Yes. Because it talks about diversity, but then in the world we say, huh, wait a second, we're not talking about diversity here. We talking about the bell curve. This is normal and these are the fringes, and then it's diversity. But that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Because we're talking about diversity, but we only call it diversity when it's a problem.

Else Kramer (00:23:28) - Exactly. Yep. And, but I think also, and, and another thing I'm noticing within neurodiversity community, you get all the, basically people putting their stake in the ground and saying, okay, this is autism. And if you say something even slightly different, right? If you say, I'm, I have autism instead of I'm autistic. Like there's whole wars being fought out

Perry Knoppert (00:23:50) - Again. Yeah. That's so linear. Oh, fucking hell. I

Else Kramer (00:23:52) - Know. Yeah. And also it's so useless. Yeah. Right? It's such a waste. I mean, if we talk about frustration, that would be like one of mine. Like, fucking shut up and go do something useful. Okay.

Perry Knoppert (00:24:04) -  and I'm and talking about autism.

Else Kramer (00:24:06) - Yes.

Perry Knoppert (00:24:08) - How weird, how weird that 80%, 90% of people with autism or autistic people, I don't know how to call, are not, or they don't have a job or they're not working within their capacity. And and that illustrates so well, the chapter 11 of linearity. Yes. Because I have so many awesome rock and roll people helping me in the movement that are capable of doing things that I find absolutely wonderful. And yes, they're on the scale. And yes, sometimes it, it, it needs a different approach. Yeah. But I have diverse thinking, so I don't care. You know, I think everybody needs

Else Kramer (00:25:04) - Their own. You don't feel threatened by it. You don't feel scared by it. Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:25:07) - Are you kidding me? And it's, and there's not a system like this is how you should respond. This is how you should work. I'm, I'm working together with an investment, uh, organization in in investment studio in, in California. And the owner said to me in the beginning, and he said, Perry, what are the rules to get into the octopus movement? And I thought it was so wonderful. And there are no rules. There are no rules in the octopus movement. And every time I go in line and I see other movements or other communities, the first thing you always see is these are the ground rules. Be gentle, be nice, don't be a dick. Don't be a dick. And if that's one of your first rules to create something, don't be a dick. You're in the wrong playing field. .

Else Kramer (00:25:54) - Right. You're obviously inviting dicks.

Perry Knoppert (00:25:57) - Yeah. Because if, if you're, if I'm hosting a party in two days, it's my birthday. So I'm hosting a big party for my birthday. Not, but imagine. Yeah. And then at the front door, I'm all inviting all my friends, welcome to my house. I'm so happy You can, please don't be a dick.

Else Kramer (00:26:16) - Please sign this form. . That's

Perry Knoppert (00:26:19) - Ridiculous.

Else Kramer (00:26:20) - I know, I know. But again, this is control and fear based. And that brings me to another, like the next card. I pulled another

Perry Knoppert (00:26:26) - Card.

Else Kramer (00:26:26) - Yes. Yeah. I pulled this card, which is like, perfect now community. Right. So, because I heard you say something like, I don't like the idea of community so much because it's still part of a system.

Perry Knoppert (00:26:37) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:26:38) - So tell me a bit more about that.

Perry Knoppert (00:26:41) - I noticed, I noticed something very interesting about myself with my dyslexia. So I find the language, again, very linear, but I never went into that corner of my life because I was afraid to write and read and say anything about language. Because the only thing I can do is make mistakes. I make stupid mistakes with my dyslexia. I have a form I have to fill in. I would,

Else Kramer (00:27:07) - By the way, not I would take out the stupid, but that's a whole

Perry Knoppert (00:27:10) - Thing. Well, that's a stupid mistake. If you're filling in a form and you're giving an answer, that is not the answer to the actual question. But my brain translate that question into a, a complete different question and I'm writing down. So I'm like, what is he writing down? Anyway, so I've, I've always, since until my age of 44, I always, you know, walked away from language. Like, I, the only thing I could do is make mistakes. Now I don't do that anymore. So I look at language and it does something to me. And the linearity of words, I find that very interesting. A glass is a glass and, you know, that's fine. Oh my

Else Kramer (00:27:48) - God. Okay. But then, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

Perry Knoppert (00:27:50) - But then the word community. So I started the octopus movement two years ago with a hundred people, a hundred weird curious minds. Really wonderful. What a party this past two years already. And then someone said, oh, you're building a community and something here, like, there's something happening,

Else Kramer (00:28:11) - Constriction.

Perry Knoppert (00:28:13) - And I thought, what is this? You know? And, and I, and it feels wrong. The word community, not in general, but with me, you know what I'm creating, it doesn't fit. And then I was watching a documentary from Paul stems about fungi, mushrooms. Yes. I so beautiful. So

Else Kramer (00:28:31) - Cool.

Perry Knoppert (00:28:31) - So cool. What to do mind's flowing with his mushroom hat. Yeah, it is so cool. Yeah. L s d on mushrooms. Anyway. And he was talking about the mycelium. That was for the, that was the first time actually I heard the word mycelium. And, and they illustrated how it works. It's like this net of neurons, but then in the ground where all these plans and mushrooms and trees are communicating with each other, insane. Helping each other, sharing nutritions. I now, I have a lot of plans in my house and I'm now thinking, who are guys, you know, they're in pots, they can't communicate with each other.

Else Kramer (00:29:11) - Disc connected shit.

Perry Knoppert (00:29:12) - So

Else Kramer (00:29:14) - My thought, oh my God, I really feel this now, I, I have lots of plans here too. .

Perry Knoppert (00:29:18) - Every time I look at them, I'm like, shit, I'm doing something. I need to anyway. And then I, this

Else Kramer (00:29:24) - Is another talk, right? We'll, we'll go. It's another talk. Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:29:27) - I need to solve that problem. Um, I think they will do better if I have a huge pot with all the plans in it. Anyway.

Else Kramer (00:29:35) - Okay, listen, I am gonna go there now for one second because when I went on holiday, I put all my, I have a ton of plants and it gets very hot in my studio. And I put them all together, like really close to each other on a massive table. And I got back and it looked like they had the best time ever.

Perry Knoppert (00:29:49) - Of course, it's nature. These are living entities. They were just

Else Kramer (00:29:53) - So, so happy to be close to each other. I

Perry Knoppert (00:29:56) - Saw mycelium and I thought, yes, that's what I'm creating. It is all these creative, weird and curious minds in the octopus movement are connected in some way with each other. And we have a, a special group, it's called the, the, the founding members. That's the inner core. It's like a family. And we're helping each other out. And it's more than just the average networking event, or you subscribe to something and you are part of it. You can feel it, you can, it's, it's different. That's what people are saying in the  movement. There's something else going on. And that's why I call it the mycelium. And a lot of linear thinkers are going nuts when I say that. And they're like, I don't understand the mycelium. Yeah, you need to be clear in your language. But for me, using mycelium is being clear in my language because I think community is not working. But to please everyone, I put community on the website, and when you press community on the website, you get the explanation that it's, it's not the communities for us consider to be in mycelium. Otherwise they're thinking we are a mushroom firm and we're not.

Else Kramer (00:31:08) - Well, that's the other thing. And because I mean, you were saying language is so linear. I think language is actually so non-linear and fucking confusing because it can be so ambiguous. It can be beautiful in poetry where you use the ambiguity. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But sometimes language can really confuse people. And you need to be very specific because otherwise people will think you are,

Perry Knoppert (00:31:26) - But that's the linearity selling drugs because they see a word. It's a yellow octopus, so it should be a yellow octopus.

Else Kramer (00:31:31) - Okay. So basically you're saying people's reaction to language. Exactly. Gotcha. Gotcha.

Perry Knoppert (00:31:35) - And that's why poetry is so awesome. Yes. Because it allows immediately, even if it's not po, what I like about poetry, if I just write down words, you know, in a poetic way without the intention of poetry, the linear conception of reading these words becomes poetry. And something happens in your brain that allows the non-linearity of language to go into your neocortex immediately. And you're, so I'm not writing down this is poetry. Oh, switch the, no, it's just because they see the structure instantaneous. That's different than normal. Then it tricks the brain immediately. Oh, it's poetry. And then the non-linearity opens up.

Else Kramer (00:32:19) - It's like all the gates go down. Right. Like cool.

Perry Knoppert (00:32:22) - That's why poetry is so fucking awesome. And then my son came home the other day. He is 15. And I said, how I was at school today? Yeah. He said, yeah, we're we're doing poetry at, at English. So annoying. I said, but the poetry is so cool. And then I asked him about how they're doing poetry at school.

Else Kramer (00:32:43) - Oh God, .

Perry Knoppert (00:32:48) - Right? And, and I said to him, I said, of course you hate poetry now because it's very systematic. This is how you should make poetry. This is the structure of poetry. And I get it. You need to learn that there are structures in poetry. I'm fine with that. And then they were explaining a poem, this is what it means. And I was reading it with

Else Kramer (00:33:09) - Him. Oh my God. And

Perry Knoppert (00:33:10) - I said to him, you know, maybe there are absolutely wrong. Maybe the artist is meaning something completely different and he's laughing his ass off. Yeah. That all these schools are lear learning this, but this is actually what's happening. That's

Else Kramer (00:33:27) - Hard. But this makes, okay, so this makes me very mad. Right,

Perry Knoppert (00:33:30) - . Yeah. Really fact.

Else Kramer (00:33:31) - And and the reason is that what are they doing? They are taking away kids power to create meaning and to make their own decisions about meaning.

Perry Knoppert (00:33:42) - Yes.

Else Kramer (00:33:42) - And I've seen the same, I see that so much in the art world. I used to teach a lot of art classes and people were terrified even to have an opinion about a work of art. Yeah. They were so worried to get it wrong. And I would have to say like, listen, the moment you're in front of the work of art and you're interacting with it, you are its owner for now. And you get to fucking decide what it means. Absolutely. Right? And that is what we have to teach kids in school. Same with poetry. Cause it's not like, oh, there is a right answer. And I think when we, when you talk about bankruptcy, right? The whole bankruptcy's a system. I think the whole thing is that people think there is a right answer to things and that they're sort of terrified of getting wrong, which again, closes them in and they just can't think at all anymore.

Perry Knoppert (00:34:27) - So, because when you're the art teacher in school, you dive into the non-linearity of appreciating art. It becomes fascinating. Yeah. And it allows the viewer of art to have a complete different interpretation whatsoever. And the, that's the intention of the artist. That's why I now I call myself an artist, by the way, I used to be an entrepreneur. I'm not an entrepreneur anymore. Same thing with the language. Yeah. Because I love the word art. Yeah. Because you can't explain it.

Else Kramer (00:35:00) - Exactly. You can't put it in a box. No, it's impossible. It's

Perry Knoppert (00:35:03) - Impossible. It's impossible to put it. And there is not the, there's not a certificate. This freaks me out as well. All the coaches in the world cover your ears.

Speaker 3 (00:35:13) - Okay. . But ,

Perry Knoppert (00:35:16) - You know, there's this scheme going on that everybody wants to be a coach. Then you get a certification and then you become a coach,

Else Kramer (00:35:24) - Or you don't, and you become a coach, you can just put a leg on the door. Exactly.

Perry Knoppert (00:35:28) - Exactly. And, and I think it's, it's more an art as well, coaching teaching.

Else Kramer (00:35:36) - Hundred percent.

Perry Knoppert (00:35:37) - Oh my God. It's an art. Yes. So it's not enough just to do your certificate and then say, oh, you know, I'm now a trauma coach.

Else Kramer (00:35:50) - Oh my, I, I don't even know where to begin with this . Like, I don't wanna go on a run rant here on like, the whole coaching industry. There's so much wrong with it in so many ways, especially also in how it treats again, neurodivergent people, right? Mm-hmm. So many neurodivergent people have very bad experiences with coaches who are like, what do you mean you have a hard time? Um, you know, managing your calendar, just change your thinking or try harder. Or have you tried this tool like to an h d person, what the hell? Right? So yeah. Let's, we, we could go there, but let's not, right.

Perry Knoppert (00:36:27) - Let's, that's a different thought.

Else Kramer (00:36:27) - Let's, let's go to something completely different that I'm curious about. Uh, I'm always curious about with my guests. What, how does your physical environment influence the way you feel? And how are you trying to manage that, if at all?

Perry Knoppert (00:36:43) - I, I have a dog.

Else Kramer (00:36:45) - Mm-hmm.

Perry Knoppert (00:36:45) - , I have a dog. That's, that's the answer to everything I have. And plants. So. And plants. Yep. Um, I, I'm always fascinated by, by some people who are saying, oh, I'm going to nature. So I'm getting into my car and I drive, and then I'm in nature and I enjoy nature. For me, nature is everywhere. Also, when I'm in my house and I look outside, we are in nature, so I don't have to have a house in nature because the house is in nature also when it's in the city. Right. Um, but I do really, so it's very difficult. I, I, I used to live in Beijing mm-hmm. , 24 million people. 24 million Chinese around you. I loved it. You know, taking the underground, they're packed with all these Chinese,

Else Kramer (00:37:32) - Right. Like Tokyo, I'm sure. Yeah. I

Perry Knoppert (00:37:33) - Loved it. Right. A lot of, but on the other hand, when it's quiet and my A d h D brain can go nuts from my little sound from three houses down the roads because someone is blowing the leaves, or it, it drives me nuts. I need to wear my headset. I need to listen to music. I don't wanna hear it. So the embodiment with my brain and my non-linear thinking does best when I'm in the forest out there, bare feet outside walking. So I go for an hour walk every day with my English springer spaniel. I prefer to do that in the forest and have a really long walk. If I'm not, well, not well means massive headaches. I, I've had a brain infection, severe one. Mm-hmm. , uh, nine years ago that changed my life. So I can have these massive headaches. I need to go outside. I need to be in the forest. Yeah. But also when my brain is exploding and my meditation in between sentences is not working anymore, and I'm thinking to myself, Perry, you can stop thinking now, you know, this is, yeah. This is getting too much. And I go into the forest. So yes, it is very important where I'm at. Um, but I also noticed that I don't need much.

Else Kramer (00:39:03) - Right. That's another, okay. So I'm gonna now pick a cart in like, intentionally, because that's another one of my cart is possessions.

Perry Knoppert (00:39:12) - Hmm.

Else Kramer (00:39:13) - What do you mean when you say, I don't need that much?

Perry Knoppert (00:39:19) - Three years ago I lost everything. It was a combination of losing everything and giving everything away because I was sick and tired of it.

Else Kramer (00:39:29) - Right. So it was par, partially intentional.

Perry Knoppert (00:39:31) - Yes. It was fascinating. It was beautiful. It was liberating. Of course, we read these books, right? You have to remove the clutter out of your life

Else Kramer (00:39:47) - And Yeah. Maryon, all the

Perry Knoppert (00:39:48) - Things Maryon. Yeah. Woo-hoo. Um, but what happens if you lose everything? That the only thing you have left is your dog and a plastic bag. And that's it. That's wonderful. That's really, really, really wonderful because all these things around us and what we think we need, we don't need. And then we wanna protect it, and then we want to maintain it, and then we find it important. And it's not, the only thing that's important is that you understand yourself and you become your, your best friends of yourself, and that the expectations are in a healthy way. And that you are, you can be free and you can be free if you have these expectations of yourself. And it's connected with materials and Yeah. It's things, possessions. And of course, buy a Rolls Royce if you can buy the Rolls-Royce. Have fun with it. And I enjoy beautiful, nice things. Of course, I love it. But it's so not important.

Else Kramer (00:41:15) - Yeah. And I think what you experienced is what actually so many people are looking for. They're looking for ultimate freedom, but they think they will be free once they have enough money. . Right. And they keep getting stuck more and more and stuck in a system that they hate, um, with this prize sort of at the end, you know, they've got their eyes on their horizon thinking, okay, if I only get this extra promotion, then I'll be free. Or if I make my first million, then I'll be free, and then I can do what I want. And you can actually do what you want right now. Just have to be okay with the consequences, everything. Right.

Perry Knoppert (00:41:53) - You can. And that's, you know, recently someone asked me about manifestation, and I was thinking about that. How do I manifest things? You know, how does it work for me? I was thinking about it for a long time, and then I discovered that my manifestation is very simple. It's just one sentence, it's there.

Else Kramer (00:42:16) - Mm.

Perry Knoppert (00:42:17) - And that's the end of it. Because if you look at that in a non-linear perspective, where you look at the emptiness in between thoughts, and you consider manifestation as being just there, remove time, remove everything. It's there. Yeah. It's there anyway. And so it's not about, it's there and how do I get there?

Else Kramer (00:42:39) - Exactly. Because then already the assumption that you don't have it Yes. Creeps in. It's

Perry Knoppert (00:42:44) - There. It's there. Yeah.

Else Kramer (00:42:46) - But that is so hard to access for people. Right. That that's why all the books like The Secret and all the courses that teach you mm-hmm. How to become a man. Amazing Manifester

Perry Knoppert (00:42:55) - Again. But I think I got there.

Else Kramer (00:42:57) - Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:42:59) - By losing everything. Yes. And being homeless for seven months and being disconnected even from my kids, that was horrible. Yeah. That's not a possession, but that's my lifeline. The the, the kids mean everything to me. And I have a very strong

Else Kramer (00:43:17) - Connection. How you keep your sanity in that. I mean, I, when, when I just picture not being able to see my daughter, I think it'd be very hard to stay sane.

Perry Knoppert (00:43:26) - There's, there was this weird sensation feeling thought that I knew I had to do this. Yeah. This sounds so ridiculous. This is  in retrospective. This is what people say when something like that happens. But when I was in the middle of it, and of course I had my moments of frustration, especially with my ex-wife who didn't understand me, who was making it even more difficult. But it learned me, it teach me something very fascinating that I, that I keep using every day in my life. The problem is not being homeless, the problem is how people deal with you when you're homeless. So the problem became a problem due to others, not by myself, basically.

Else Kramer (00:44:15) - Other people not being okay with you being homeless.

Perry Knoppert (00:44:18) - Exactly. So, and my thought constantly was, that's weird. I am in this place where it's not easy. I, I went to a government here in the Netherlands to register myself. They didn't wanna register me because I was without a job homeless. So they said, well, we didn't ask you to come back to the Netherlands, so piss off

Else Kramer (00:44:42) - . That's Yeah. You're not gonna pay tax, are you? ,

Perry Knoppert (00:44:45) - Fuck you. Yeah. And that's weird, right? And I'm like, but if you help me, then okay. Anyway. So being, being in that place, then other people find it difficult. So the government had difficulty with me being in that place.

Else Kramer (00:45:07) - Yes. Because they can put you in a box.

Perry Knoppert (00:45:10) - Right. And that's why I'm saying we need to create nonlinear manager saying, okay, this doesn't fit into the system, but let's do this and this. Because in the long run, we are not only helping you, we're also helping ourselves. That is better for the bigger picture, but also with family and friends. You know, they, they didn't understand me what was going on, so they were judging me. Just ridiculous. You have to

Else Kramer (00:45:34) - Listen. People, humans are gonna judge. And especially if you threaten their own system.

Perry Knoppert (00:45:42) - Yep.

Else Kramer (00:45:43) - Right? So once you threaten someone else's system, someone else's paradigm, well, two things can happen. They can become super curious and excited for you, or they can start to push back and be like, you're insane and you need to be fixed.

Perry Knoppert (00:45:57) - Yeah. And if you trigger their fear Yeah. Then it's really difficult. And being homeless is, of course, you're in the fear chapter, you know? Yeah. I think this is

Else Kramer (00:46:07) - The biggest fear for so many people. This is the biggest

Perry Knoppert (00:46:09) - Yeah. Fear for so many people. I mean, after death,

Else Kramer (00:46:12) - A loved one. Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:46:13) - I'm okay. It's okay. You know, it's fine. And I even took my own decision to go there. That's weird. Yeah. That's, uh, we don't wanna talk to him and, and don't let, don't don bring him close to me because I don't wanna be there where he is.

Else Kramer (00:46:32) - Maybe it's contagious

Perry Knoppert (00:46:33) - To protect, maybe it's contagious. , maybe it's age, you know, you know,

Else Kramer (00:46:37) - He could rub off.

Perry Knoppert (00:46:39) - So that was a very important lifeless. And that's also has to do with neurodiversity and masking. You're weird. You're weird in your brain. You do things differently. Look at, you know, highly gifted your school. You can learn faster than any of everyone else. What happens with the other kids? They're like, Ugh, he's scary. Yeah. You know? Oh, I don't want this. He's learning so much faster than me. Don't, don't like

Else Kramer (00:47:01) - That. Sit next to him.

Perry Knoppert (00:47:03) - I don't wanna sit next to him. How particular, how

Else Kramer (00:47:10) - So? Okay. So this is, this has happened. I think to all the listeners on the podcast, or at least those of the, you know, the, the listeners of the podcast who were identified as gifted in school, not all of them were, that will have this experience of being kind of othered because their brain works so well. Right. And I think this is a problem for a lot of very smart people, that so many other people feel very threatened by you. And then our reaction is to dumb down, become palatable. Right. To create safety for other people. But it's in fact, very unsafe for us. Mm-hmm. , you pay a very high price. And I love what you're doing with the movement, which is kind of almost rebranding, being different as being valuable instead of being threatening.

Perry Knoppert (00:47:59) - Mm-hmm. .

Else Kramer (00:48:00) - Yeah. Do you wanna speak a little to that? Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:48:03) - I, I, I teach at schools about non-linear thinking as well. And, and, and I have a huge project coming up for kids.

Else Kramer (00:48:11) - I love that.

Perry Knoppert (00:48:13) - Um, because, you know, they have a job to do as well, the kids. And it's, and it's, it's interesting for them as well to find ways to deal with the fact you're way smarter than the rest. Or you can't sit still, or your, your focus is organized in a complete different way. Or you have dyspraxia and your handwriting is worse than your family doctor. What do you do? And the problem in the system is that the system is not explaining to you what to do. Yeah. So if you're very lucky, you have an amazing teacher who helps you Yes. To find your way. And everybody remembers one teacher at least who gets it. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. Like, yeah, that was, I wish all my teachers were like that. And I, and I also do think sidestep that hardship is a good thing. So I agree.

Perry Knoppert (00:49:20) - You know, I've lived in China there. This is a Buddhist, uh, uh, bits. There's no suffering. Suffering doesn't exist. Oh, God. Don't be angry with me. People. Let's, let's see this in a non-linear space, that sovereign does, doesn't exist. Hardship does exist. Pain. And I think, I think pain, pain exists, but I think the hardship being different also creates something very interesting. But it would be so cool not to go to that hardship for 44 years and then discover you're actually a beautiful person. And, and that's the issue I have. Hardship is, okay. And find your spots in our community, in our society. That's fine. But how cool would it be that as a child and you're at school and you're highly gifted, that you can find your way and you, you will have tools for yourself to, to talk to others. Because the, the opposite is so difficult.

Perry Knoppert (00:50:32) - I know so many stories where it totally goes wrong. Yeah. Where I know one story, that highly gifted child, you know, not in the, in the family. Not everybody understands the highly giftedness. No. And that makes it so difficult. So where does the child learns how to make something out of this life? And it disconnects completely. And it's not masking anymore because it became so big. So other things are happening that makes life so difficult. And you are wondering, is this person going to be fine? Yeah. And it's a waste because as humanity, this is a beautiful person who can help us, you know, thrive. Exactly. The amazing They can

Else Kramer (00:51:24) - Do amazing things for, I mean, this is the whole basis of my work, right? This is why I'm doing what I'm doing, because I saw all these gifted people who are at home sick, mad. Right. All the things not being able to contribute because of the way the school system treated them, the be because of the way society has perceived them. O of course there's some ownership for them as well. Right. I think it goes both ways, but it is such a massive waste on an incredible skill. Right. It's a human tragedy, but it's also a global tragedy. And, and, you know, something, you change it

Perry Knoppert (00:51:57) - Also, I I, I met some, you know, it's easy to talk for us like this. Like I, no, you know, this is it. And we all know everything, but the reality of life is, is so complicated. Yes. Because sometimes I meet very linear people and they're like, I don't get it. Why are, why are you doing, why are you being so difficult? You know? And you're so smart. Why do, why don't you just follow the system? You're smart enough. You know, you're highly gifted. So why are you not doing this? That's very complicated.

Else Kramer (00:52:34) - That's what is your answer when they say that? Like, I, I mean, there's so much to unpack here, right? So many assumptions and so many misconceptions.

Perry Knoppert (00:52:46) - I, I tell them about my own dyslexia, because that's the easiest example. And then explaining to them at school how everything always goes wrong with all the subjects because there's language in all the subjects. They have to write, history, science doesn't matter. So you make stupid mistakes again, you know, because it's, it's not in line, which is what is actually there. And then you, you start thinking yourself that you're stupid. Yes. That you're dumb . And when you think about that of yourself, you're going to protect yourself. So you're going to be quiet, or you're going to do the things where you at least get some appreciation, but maybe that's not the thing you really wanna do. You start to, and everybody

Else Kramer (00:53:44) - Play the system. Right. But not in a fun way.

Perry Knoppert (00:53:47) - Yeah. Yeah. And then I explain to people who has, who don't have this in their lives, you know, who, who don't recognize this. And then I explain to them how it is to be not being seen and heard and for who you really are. And when you're always, like my son, before he knew he had dyspraxia, his, his Dutch teacher in the international school was always using a red pen, you know, and then she would write down, improve your handwriting, Ben. Huge, right?

Else Kramer (00:54:23) - Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (00:54:25) - It frustrated him so much. He came home crying so many times. He can't, if you're colorblind and your teacher is constantly saying, you're using the wrong color pen asshole.

Else Kramer (00:54:40) - Yeah. That's basically abusive,

Perry Knoppert (00:54:43) - Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's wrong.

Else Kramer (00:54:46) - Yeah. It's, it's abusive. And I think people have no idea. Um, it may seem very nice on the surface, and I sometimes people say to me, listen, Elsa, look at you. You, you're doing amazing. You have this amazing studio to work from. You have a beautiful life. I'm like, yeah, I am 50. I have, I can't even count the amount of depressions I've been bullied at work continuously at school. Right. All the things. So people have no idea what went before. They see like the, the end kind of end product where it's, where it's at right now. It's insane to be in a system that punishes you for who you are. Right. And then of course, if a teacher makes you out to be weird, that's also a signal. Or like a leader, a manager, that's a kind of signal to the rest of the pack to pick on you too. Yep. And I, I think so much confidence can be destroyed in children, um, that that damage is just, it's, yeah. It should be punishable, really. Right? But let's just, instead of punish it, let's just change it. Let's change it.

Perry Knoppert (00:55:55) - And that's, and that's why I started the octopus movement, just to create the awareness of the awesomeness of people that are wired a bit different in whatever way. That's it.

Else Kramer (00:56:07) - Exactly. Right. Um, and I think when we think about children, I think that also ties into what you were saying before about people being so worried about you being homeless. I think a lot of people who, parents who aren't neurodivergent, who have neurodivergent kids from a very well-meaning loving space, try to kind of normalize their kids, right? Because they're like, if you're not normal, you're, it's gonna be so painful for you to be in the world, and please fit into this box. Please. You know, please don't do the movements if you move too much.

Perry Knoppert (00:56:44) - Is that, is that really the case? Or are they only talking about themselves?

Else Kramer (00:56:50) - Uh, do you mean the parents? Yeah. I don't think this is a conscious thing, right? I think it's No,

Perry Knoppert (00:56:55) - No, no. Of course not. Right. But it's,

Else Kramer (00:56:56) - It's a subconscious thing, but

Perry Knoppert (00:56:57) - It's so easy also to say up loud to yourself when you have a conversation with yourself. Yeah. But I mean, so Well, and I wanna protect my kids, so everything that I do is okay, rather than

Else Kramer (00:57:09) - You are assuming self-reflection, which would be really nice and dandy. But ,

Perry Knoppert (00:57:17) - I dandy. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. But it's true, right? Yeah. This is, this is the linearity of thinking as well. Yeah. Like, oh, but this is important. It needs to be successful, needs to be, exactly.

Else Kramer (00:57:28) - It needs to tick all the boxes, right. Get,

Perry Knoppert (00:57:30) - Because that's how we're trained. That's how we need to do, rather than what do I feel? How do I see my child happy? Is it okay if they don't thick the boxes? Is it okay if they do things completely different? And I'm constantly saying to parents as well, can you imagine how the world looks like 10 years from now? No. Because if I listen to all the podcasts about everything that's changing in the world right now, we have no idea how it looks like in 10 years. It'd

Else Kramer (00:58:06) - Be crazy.

Perry Knoppert (00:58:08) - So, so then I think as a parent, the only thing we need to do is not push and support our kids to be successful with all the boxes. I think what is, what we need to do as parents is be very supportive and curious to our kids and allow them to be themselves, even though that is something you have never been to. But we are, we're stuck in our thinking, thinking is, you know, we, we fire the same neurons every day, I think, and then we get the same response back. So we, we have this pinball machine in our brain going like this all the time, and then your child does something and goes into the pinball machine and what's happening, and oh my God, now the ball goes to some other nurse,

Else Kramer (00:59:04) - There's a pattern interrupt.

Perry Knoppert (00:59:06) - Oh, fuck yeah. Allow it. And maybe as a parent, you can even grow by really listening and looking at your child. Yeah. It's fucking up is an exams Okay. What's really happening here?

Else Kramer (00:59:22) - Exactly. What's underneath, what's, what does this, what does this child need? Right? Instead of how can we make this child fit the system? And

Perry Knoppert (00:59:31) - I've, I've met one, one more thing I wanna say. Okay, sure. Which I thought was so interesting. Last year I met 1,178 people on Zoom for the octopus, move all these I

Else Kramer (00:59:41) - Love that. You know the exact number. That's

Perry Knoppert (00:59:42) - Insane. Yeah. I downloaded my data from Zoom. You can do that. Put it in the Excel sheet. I'm nerdy in that kinda way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. Oh, this meant 23,000 minutes. Something like that. Yeah. Um, I've met so many people, of course, because I only talk to the weirdos, but from the weirdos, many of them became very successful at something where during high school or even university, the specialists, teachers, professors were saying to them, if I were you, I would go this direction because this is never gonna work. That's weird, Alison. Mm-hmm. , I've, I've met a writer who sold so many books, and his English professor said to him, if I were you, I wouldn't follow up on your writing, because it's horrible. He's very successful. Now. People that are at, at, at high school, kids are at high school and, and, and get the news from their math professor. Math is a difficult thing. Right. And then, oh, you suck at math. You know, don't use math, don't go there. You're horrible at it. And then I, and I meet people that later in life, after university, after everything, then all of a sudden they're using math for their work or their company, or their art or whatever, and they discover they're actually very good at it. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:01:15) - They're amazing. They,

Perry Knoppert (01:01:16) - Wow. Right.

Else Kramer (01:01:19) - Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (01:01:20) - So maybe we need to serve the wave a little bit more as parent

Else Kramer (01:01:25) - A hundred percent. And,

Perry Knoppert (01:01:26) - And allow child to discover themselves. Where also I see that, I ask kids, you know, they're nine, 10 years old, and I say, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And they're like, oh, I wanna be a vet or a teacher or this or that. And then, then I said, yo, you can do everything together as well. How cool is that? And, and then these nine year olds are saying to me, Uhuh, that's not possible. They're freaking nine years old. Oh

Else Kramer (01:01:49) - No, they're already at nine. They're like, that's

Perry Knoppert (01:01:51) - Not possible. Yes. And I'm 48. Wow. Thursday I will be 48. And then they were talking to me, I'm wrong. A nine year old, no, Perry, that's not true. I said, trust me, it is true. But, but so in our society, it's so much focused, what you said earlier to the horizon, there is where I wanna go and in order to get there and need to do this, this, and this. But when you look at very successful and what you define successful, I don't know. But when you look at people with a very interesting story that seem very happy and, and very imbalanced and, and, and healthy for themselves. They discovered their own path and they combine many, many, many, many things together. And then eventually they're somewhere where they need to be.

Else Kramer (01:02:44) - Yes, there's a spot. Exactly. And I think, and also that, that is constantly changing, right? So this whole concept of there's a thing and you will discover what your thing is, that is also mental. It is. I mean, we're constantly evolving. I will be a, a completely different person tomorrow, but I'm kind of mad that way. Maybe like for other people's next year . Yeah. So maybe next year I'll be doing completely different things, but all the things I've done before I carry with me. Right. It's not like, and that's the other concept. It's as if you can Oh, but you're throwing everything away. I've changed so many jobs and people say, you're throwing everything away. Everything you've built up, you're throwing it away. I'm like,

Perry Knoppert (01:03:28) - That's how in here, that's

Else Kramer (01:03:29) - Exactly, how can I throw, throw that away.

Perry Knoppert (01:03:32) - And that's the beautiful possession. It's not about buying that designer table because that's worthless in the end. Yes. You can sell it again at Mark Platz and then you get more money for it or whatever. I'm not talking about that. When I look into my life, the real possession, the real beauty of my life was traveling, meeting interesting people and crying in front of Rothco for the first time I saw a painting that size in London. Those are the things that really matter. Not the Rolex, not the iPhone. I do have an iPhone. I love an iPhone. It's so cool what you can do on it. But the real sensation is traveling, meeting people, seeing art that's beautiful possession rather than a designer table.

Else Kramer (01:04:23) - It's the way what, what I'm hearing is right. The, the sense of being fully alive versus creating safety through possession.

Perry Knoppert (01:04:32) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:04:32) - Yeah. And I think that's

Perry Knoppert (01:04:34) - Whatever that safety may be then, but yeah.

Else Kramer (01:04:36) - Yeah. And that's different for different people for sure. Listen, I wanna talk about drugs, .

Perry Knoppert (01:04:42) - Oh, that's,

Else Kramer (01:04:43) - And, and not in the way you think. Uh, maybe, but this is my, my l s d card. I just drew, the reason I wanna talk about this is I heard you say on a podcast, um, the way other people describe taking anesthesia. That's how my brain works. And they like, I'm like, oh my God, are you in my brain? Right. I often say this to people who are like, who ask me, have you ever tried drugs? I'm like, are you kidding me? I am always on drugs. Right. I need to sometimes try and switch it off a little bit so I can get some work done. But I could trip on a flower for four hours. No problem. . Right? So tell me, what is that like for you? I'm curious.

Perry Knoppert (01:05:19) - I, I've, I've created a, uh, a theory in my thinking regarding to drugs, because I was triggered indeed about L S D I was watching a Netflix series on how the brain works, something like that. And the first episode was about L S D, and that was the scientist in Switzerland and who discovered L S D. And he was explaining what happened in his brain. And that triggered me thinking like, you, yeah, that's my dayto day, how I see things. Fuck

Else Kramer (01:05:48) - Join the club. Jesus.

Perry Knoppert (01:05:49) - How boring. Okay. And , and I was looking at it more and more, and then I thought, maybe this is very black and white for me, but if, if, if you have forced, listen carefully. If you forced yourself into that linear world, then using L S D is a beautiful escape to let go of the linearity that you force yourself into because of all the expectations of everyone, including your own. And you go back to your true self. I get that.

Else Kramer (01:06:31) - You go

Perry Knoppert (01:06:32) - Home, the other thing. Right? Right.

Else Kramer (01:06:34) - You go home, you arrive home.

Perry Knoppert (01:06:37) - It removes everything you've learned at school. Yeah. And, and, and you see nature in a different way. And that's how l s D works, right? It makes, yeah. New connections. It opens up pathways. We do that all the time by allowing us to dive into the emptiness of non-lead thinking. So we create new pathways all the time. Can be freaking annoying if you're our partner.

Else Kramer (01:07:05) - I was gonna say, I mean, my husband, and like, we'd be on a biking holiday and I'd be like, no, but wait, have you seen this flower ?

Perry Knoppert (01:07:14) - It's annoying. And Perry, really? Yes. Couldn't you mention this earlier as it just appeared? You know, I wasn't planning on this

Else Kramer (01:07:24) - Even like a spot on the wall, right? Yeah. I could be like, oh my God, this cement is just so gorgeous and I have to go touch it. ,

Perry Knoppert (01:07:33) - We're Yeah, yeah. I understand. We're, yeah. You know, in, in, in. Yeah. Okay. Um, ls d So if you force yourself with your neurotypical brain to be very linear, then an L s D trip can be very awakening, I think. But you don't even have to use L S D to go there. I do even think I'm setting up an experience for people to, uh, be with me for 24 hours. And it's a non-linear experience. It's not coaching, it's teaching. And I will teach about that empty space, one-on-one for 24 hours, and let's dive into that. And it feels to me that it's close to that L s d experience. And we can go there without L S D. I agree. On the other hand, if you're very non-linear like us, then cannabis is very interesting. Um, I'm Dutch and I was in a relationship with someone in Belgium with an artist, and she said, oh, Perry, you have never used cannabis in your, your life, but you're Dutch. I said, no, I don't do drugs. I don't need drugs. I'm,

Else Kramer (01:08:42) - You know, it's funny, that assumption, right? That we're Dutch. We've obviously tried all the things

Perry Knoppert (01:08:46) - And  no,

Else Kramer (01:08:47) - Never. Not doved up. No, no. People.

Perry Knoppert (01:08:49) - She used everything. Yeah. Cocaine, heroin, L s D, the whole shebang. You know, I'm an artist, so I can use, that's also very linear. You know, I'm an artist. So I, anyway, so at one point I said, okay, let's do cannabis. I wanna know what it is. I wanna discover what it is, at least, you know, see what happens. And I get it. I get it. When you have d h D I get it. You take cannabis and it fucking quiets down the whole system in your head, right? And everything feels so good,  and time is gone. Yeah. And then again, I'm thinking, how can you go there without using cannabis? And for me, that's meditation. So I have cannabis meditation for myself, even in between sentences when I speak. I just did it go there immediately, training for a very long time to go from here to here in a split second and shut down.

Perry Knoppert (01:09:53) - And it's like using cannabis and you forget about time. You just, your century is amazing. And it's possible with meditation and breathing techniques, and then using your brain to be on L S D and to say to yourself, OIN meditation. Okay, go ahead. Fire it up. Yeah, I'm ready to create any new pathway you can imagine. And I stimulate myself to even think more and more and more and fast and faster and faster. And I can listen to music. Music really helps in that way. And I use that also sometimes in our global think tanks. We have the octopus movement, global think tanks, where we have people from all over the world come together and we brainstorm about a topic that is important. Like rethinking intelligence is one of the latest white papers we did. Ooh, interesting. What is intelligence? You know, what, what are we talking about?

Perry Knoppert (01:10:53) - And I have people from all over the world, all different backgrounds, neurodiversity, craziness, upbringing, skills, religion, everything is there. And then I play weird music, and it goes like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Very fast, very loud. And then in the beginning, people are like, Perry, what are you doing? But then after a few minutes, you see like 25 people under the digital whiteboard with Post-Its, it's madness. But it's like everybody is on L s D, and it's, and we are creating thoughts, and it doesn't matter what kind of thoughts they are. And we, we explode in our thinking and create something new. And we do this now also with, uh, sponsorship for the movement, where we do this global, non-linear think tanks to help organizations or governments or whatever. We have a problem. We're not just solving a problem, but we're putting your entity on L s D and love

Else Kramer (01:11:59) - It

Perry Knoppert (01:11:59) - And , and we give it to you. And you can, you can read what is there, and that can triggers new pathways to come up with your own solution. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:12:09) - So, cool. And this is, I I have just done the most fascinating thing the past six months or so, I have certified in hypnotherapy, which is working with the subconscious. And it's, it's a very similar thing. You can actually hypnotize yourself into tripping, right? And other people, it's just working with the brain and the subconscious part of the brain. And I think it's such a shame. Um, our society has been so dismissive of all of that, and so scared because there's, so, there's this incredible reservoir of knowledge, of knowing, of creativity that we've barely scratched the surface. So I love that you're, you're helping people access that. That is so cool. That is so cool.

Perry Knoppert (01:12:51) - And, and what I'm very proud of, I, I recently asked a group said, what do you think of this think tank? And someone in, in the United States said, Julia, they said, I'm so happy you're asking me to help you to think about something, because I know I have interesting thoughts. Nobody is asking me to think with them. And

Else Kramer (01:13:20) - Oh my God, yeah,

Perry Knoppert (01:13:21) - I'm here and I can join the think tank whenever I want. It's once a month. And it allows me to go outside of the box what I really enjoy and think about, not only for my neighbor and how to solve this problem in cleaning the barbecue, but solving a problem that is really big in the world. Yeah. Like how we can rethink intelligence, how we can look at intelligence in a different way, or whatever topic we just did. Communication between the linear, non-linear minds. You know, how, how do we solve that? Mm.

Else Kramer (01:14:00) - That's a very good problem to solve, for

Perry Knoppert (01:14:03) - Sure.

Else Kramer (01:14:03) - Yeah. And I love that you're doing this because I think a very innate need of human beings is to contribute.

Else Kramer (01:14:12) - I think when you look at, I mean, we know all the, the statistics of the people who retire and immediately die, right? Yeah. Because they're no longer, they don't feel like they're contributing. Like, so all meaning goes out the window and giving the people the possibility to contribute on their terms, which is what you are doing, right? Instead of saying, oh, you can contribute, but you have to become part of the system. Mm. Yeah. You have to show up nine to five, then you can contribute. No, you're saying, Hey, you can contribute, but you can come as you are. To me, that's almost sacred.

Perry Knoppert (01:14:45) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:14:45) - Right? You're inviting someone in saying, give us your beauty. Give us your, your, you know, your radiance, everything you bring, and we, you know, we want it and we want to see you, and we want to hear from you, but we don't ask you to do it in a certain way, to sign a form to Right. And to be there at 9:00 AM

Perry Knoppert (01:15:06) - Or pay for it and, and do this and do that. And we do two times, one hour. And sometimes people come only for the first hour or the second hour. It's fine.

Else Kramer (01:15:14) - Right. And you don't get mad. It's,

Perry Knoppert (01:15:16) - Life becomes so much nicer when you're able to say many times, it's fine.

Else Kramer (01:15:22) - It's not a problem. It's

Perry Knoppert (01:15:24) - Not a problem. It's not a, and it's cool. We learn that when we do an exam, we do like this. So nobody can watch what you, you're writing, you're not sharing. Yes. But in, in real life, it is about sharing. And then I do this where people can just show up for an hour or do both or one. And then my thinking as well, because when we create the white paper, all the, all the, uh, people that were in the think tank are on the white paper as well. So all their names are there contributing into the white paper. And I was thinking, do I write down the names of the people who only showed up once instead of the full two hours? And then I, this is, this is the fun that I have in life that I'm immediately thinking, oh, Perry, how in here Jesus? Right. Of course. I right down

Else Kramer (01:16:12) - There, someone, one genius thought, like, for in one minute and be there and say bye, and that will solve everybody's problem. Of

Perry Knoppert (01:16:20) - Course you're

Else Kramer (01:16:20) - There. And again, this is exactly, but this is so interesting. This is like the industrial age thinking, which like, equates time spent with productivity, which is another like, massive burden. So many of us are carrying, like, I have been told I'm lazy so many times, but the way I think looks like I'm walking around my studio, touching things or, you know, messing about with things, stuff is happening in my head. Or I'll, I'll even like take a nap. But I am working super hard in a way that isn't seen as work. Right. Or I'm maybe painting, or, or whatever it is. I, I idea doing ideation. There's this weird conception, which I love that you were kind of dismantling that again, work is linear. Right? And,

Perry Knoppert (01:17:07) - And that's why people are very judgmental. Oh, you're lazy. That's very judgmental. Yes'. Do that. Don't do that. Yeah. Right.

Else Kramer (01:17:15) - Yeah. It's lying. I think everybody with d h ADHD has been told that. Right? Exactly. Oh my God, you're so, so undisciplined and so lazy. If only you would apply yourself more,

Perry Knoppert (01:17:24) - Be an artist. As an artist, everything is fine. You can be lazy, lazy. Fucking hell. Lazy is, is, it's such a linear world. What, what does it mean? Laziness. You know, you have Rick Rubin, do you know Rick Rubin?

Else Kramer (01:17:38) - I dunno. I only think in pictures. Is he a mo He's,

Perry Knoppert (01:17:41) - No, he is a producer and of hip hop. He's cool. Okay. No, I know. Long beard, long hair. I wish I was him when I grow up. You know? He, he is just so cool. And, and he's also, he's going to that emptiness many times. Yeah. And he's also saying, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, he, he produced the most brilliant el albums in a very non-linear way. Just let's go there. And he is in his studio, and he's walking there in his t-shirt without socks on, without shoes on. And he's just lying there on the couch listening and seeing what happens. And we have this image. That's how we're trained. If you're producing, this is how you work. When you're an accountant, then this is what you do. Yeah. When you're a teacher, this is what you do. This is what we wear. This is how we behave. So then we can label, if someone is not doing that, that person is weird.

Else Kramer (01:18:43) - Yeah. Or you're out even,

Perry Knoppert (01:18:45) - Or when you are like me always working, then oh, you're workaholic. No, I don't consider this as work. I'm an artist and I'm creating art, and I love doing that in my life. And there are no opening hours into creating art. I'm not having office hours. This is what I'm doing.

Else Kramer (01:19:05) - This is what you're living, right?

Perry Knoppert (01:19:07) - Yes.

Else Kramer (01:19:08) - Yeah. You're, you're breathing and living it. And I think when it comes to creating, I think for many of us who work in art or in a way like, you know, our, our work is artful, it is like the growth is in doing less Right. And opening up the channel so something can come through you rather than you controlling, manipulating, right. Projecting shit onto the world. And that is the most beautiful evolution.

Perry Knoppert (01:19:40) - And is that life, it's, it's life not art by itself. Yes. And even though you have a very linear job in an office, you can be still very artistic in how you see life. Even though you go to the office every day, five days a week, from nine to five, whatever, it doesn't mean that this is the space that you're ads and that's the end of it. You know, there is that emptiness everywhere in between thoughts in what you do. And it's an art to create your life in how you wanna live your life.

Else Kramer (01:20:24) - Okay. Let's talk about something super, or sorry, did you wanna say? No,

Perry Knoppert (01:20:27) - No, no, go ahead.

Else Kramer (01:20:28) - Because we have to talk about something related to that, which I think is an objection many people have when we start talking about, you know, just be yourself and follow your intuition and do the things, and it'll say, but money.

Perry Knoppert (01:20:42) - Hmm.

Else Kramer (01:20:43) - But economy. But our world is structured and organized around doing a thing, getting a reward, then using that to feed yourself or get status, or both , right? And you always say, I'm not interested in money, I am fascinated by money. Right? Like the role it plays, the, the games people play with it, how they use it and abuse it, but also how you can use it as a force for good. Um, so how, you know, gimme your thoughts on money. First

Perry Knoppert (01:21:16) - Of all, money, money is fuel. Right? I've learned that from an investor, a billionaire, you know, he has a lot of money. So I trust him in his opinion, you know, , he said, Perry, money is fuel. And, and that for me made things different in a different perspective. So money allows you to move forward to create energy, like fuel does, but you have to put the fuel into something. Mm-hmm. , if you just put the fuel on the ground, then it disappears and you can burn it. And that's it. So by creating something that works for you as a starting point, and then add fuel, fuel to it, it becomes more, and I see too many people who are created something that without fuel, it's not possible. And I think it would be such an interesting exercise to see, okay, I create my life and my manifestation is it's there and you're there, and you put that in balance, and then fuel comes in and you go even faster and you can go further. So what does that mean? Very practical, you know, then people say, yeah, but I need to pay all the bills. Yeah. And my house, and stop, there's my bread talking about, woo, we need to live.

Else Kramer (01:22:59) - Yeah. Cat food,

Perry Knoppert (01:23:00) - All the things. I get it. So how much do you need to stay alive? Not that much. I've stayed alive for three years without getting any money from the government. I stayed alive with donations and help my dear girlfriend and friends. My best friend is paying for my phone, used my mother's car. I get it. But you can be very creative to build something that is a hundred percent you, without the condition, I can only be myself if I live in this house. Mm. So I think you need to create what is you, regardless of any conditions, because it, it's possible to be alive with just a tiny bit of money, really.

Perry Knoppert (01:24:04) - And then that's your starting point, and then it grows, and then money comes in, and then it becomes real power in fuel and it grows even bigger. So I think it's, I think many people do it in the wrong order. They start with the fuel, and then based on the fuel, they decide what kind of car they get. I would suggest to start with the car and then put the fuel in later. But make sure the car has wheels, has a steering wheel and an engine. Because putting fuel in without an engine, it's not working. I've created the whole octopus movement by myself without any investment. And I'm a global movement with more than 3000 people in 65 countries, zero investment.

Else Kramer (01:24:57) - It's amazing. What is possible, right? It's insane.

Perry Knoppert (01:25:00) - It's insane. But you need to disconnect yourself, not from the system, because I'm not here saying everybody should get out of the system. No.

Else Kramer (01:25:11) - Right. Get off the grid, get your little

Perry Knoppert (01:25:12) - Heart. No, no, no. That's also fake, right? Yes. Going off grid. That's denial. I'm going off grid and everything is fine. No, no. It can be, but it's, it doesn't work that way because you're also still then off grid and you're there. You need to make sure it works for you. Remove all the noise, and that's the possession. Maybe you have a lot of noise around you, maybe you need to remove that. Maybe you need to sell your house. Go into a much smaller house where there's not that, oh my God, my mortgage. And if my husband stops working, then we're in deep trouble. Fine. Maybe you don't wanna be there. And then who fucking cares how your house looks? Like? What are you doing for your neighbors, for your family to show your parents you're doing, doing okay? Think you can do it in different ways.

Else Kramer (01:26:08) - So basically you're advocating finding that security in yourself rather than the things, and also kind of taking a leap of faith. Yeah. Risking it.

Perry Knoppert (01:26:20) - Mm-hmm. .

Else Kramer (01:26:21) - But when you talk about, um, relying, or I'm even using the word relying, maybe you would word it differently. I'm totally open to that. Relying on friends helping you. I am guessing some people would say, but that would make me dependent. And I don't wanna be dependent, which I think is another beautiful word to dive into.

Perry Knoppert (01:26:40) - Yeah, no, I get that. I understand. But it's, um, I started off with really just a tent and camping on a campsite, thanks to a friend. I was depending on one friend to be there. That's the end of it. Really Go low. And you, you survive everything. You stay alive. People, maybe we think too easily that we're gonna die. We're not.

Else Kramer (01:27:11) - But I think also on the flip side of this is our trouble with receiving. Right? So are you able to receive help if people wanna offer it? Are you able to receive money if people wanna give it to you? Yeah. Or does your brain go, oh, but now I'll own them. And I'll be like, you know, it'll be scary sometimes the world just wants to give you things. That's my experience anyway.

Perry Knoppert (01:27:37) - Yeah, true.

Else Kramer (01:27:40) - So maybe you are really good at receiving.

Perry Knoppert (01:27:43) - Well, it's the manifesting for sure. And also, I I also discovered something after being homeless or during homelessness, is that I don't wanna convince people anymore. That's a promise I made with myself, being an entrepreneur, being not completely honest with myself, having expectations that were ridiculous of myself. I was convincing myself and others that I needed to be in a space where I was not. And that doesn't work. That creates a wrong vibration. And, and, and I f and people listening to me, you know, I fucked up many times in my life because of this, because

Else Kramer (01:28:32) - Of, I think we all do. Yeah.

Perry Knoppert (01:28:34) - I convinced so many people, and I was very good at it. It's wrong. But keep in mind that I was also convincing myself Yeah. That I was doing a good job. And now in my thinking, it's not only, oh boy, this is linear, you know? Or I go into the empty space in between linear thinking, but I also sometimes see something and I'm thinking, am I now trying to convince someone I'm, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. It's there. So when you're absolutely sure that everything is there, you don't have to convince anyone because it means you are not aligned. And that alignment will come when it's there and it's there anyway. So you don't have to convince anyone. Exactly. And if someone totally disagrees with me, that's, that's perfect. Because there needs to be a balance. If everybody agrees with the octopus movement, we're nothing. Right.

Else Kramer (01:29:44) - You, you've become meaningless.

Perry Knoppert (01:29:46) - Totally meaningless. Yes. So if someone who is very, very much in a linear space and even gets very annoyed by me, that's wonderful. That needs to be there, because otherwise it's not working. It's it, then it doesn't exist.

Else Kramer (01:30:06) - Right? Yeah. It's a yin and a yang kind of. You need the other to define you the opposite,

Perry Knoppert (01:30:11) - Of course.

Else Kramer (01:30:13) - What is your, what are your future? Do you even live in the future, first of all? And if so, what are your future visions for the movement?

Perry Knoppert (01:30:23) - It's, it's a difficult question. Um, I see the movement as an entity. So I, I, I don't see the movement as a nonprofit, you know, very systematic. It, it, I don't see it that way. So the movement is growing. It's very organic. Where does it go? I don't have a blueprint. I don't have a business plan. It just grows as it grows. And I love that. Where are we going? I don't know. But I do know that what I see is happening in the world right now. I do believe that we're going to be very busy in the near future. And I do believe that a lot of creative, interesting people that have very interesting brains are, are going to enjoy this so much. Especially in, there's yin and yang again, because of what's happening and because of what's happening with ai, losing jobs, redefining things, understanding that thinking differently is going to be important in our lives. So I do think the octopus movement is going to grow even further. And, and that's going to be interesting. And it's, where, where does it go? I, I have no idea. I have really no idea.

Else Kramer (01:31:49) - I love how good you are at sitting in the not knowing.

Perry Knoppert (01:31:53) - Yeah. If

Else Kramer (01:31:54) - We talk about superpowers, I think that's definitely one.

Perry Knoppert (01:31:57) - Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:31:59) - I'm looking at the time. Do you have time for one more question? Of course. Or do you need to go? Course. Okay. No, because I would love, I'm fine. I I have so many cards left. I mean, art chat, g p t, magic. Let's go

Perry Knoppert (01:32:09) - Fast through cards. We can do

Else Kramer (01:32:11) - That. Let's go fast. Okay. Magic. Let's go fast. Talk to me about magic.

Perry Knoppert (01:32:13) - Magic. Yep.

Else Kramer (01:32:16) - What does magic, if anything, what does the word mean to you?

Perry Knoppert (01:32:19) - Magic. Nothing.

Else Kramer (01:32:23) - Okay. Let's go to chat. G p t. Hmm.

Perry Knoppert (01:32:28) - Interesting. This, that's my favorite linear assistant. I, okay, let's go fast. It's the combination between a linear, uh, a non-linear brain. Brain and a language model. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. I can play with it. I can give it instructions. And then I say, do you understand? Don't write anything yet. Do you understand what I mean? Let's go there, let's go there, let's go there. And then combine everything. Now go. And then I see it and I'm thinking, wow, that's cool. And I tweak and do and use that. It's, it's a wonderful assistant. Next.

Else Kramer (01:33:07) - Okay. Art and photography.

Perry Knoppert (01:33:13) - Um, I'm an, I am, I'm a photographer. I love that. I, I love seeing things. So if you're an L s D and, and , you see things around you and you're a photographer. I think the art of photography, is that what you see? You can also bring that into a picture. I discovered a few years ago that that's not the case for everyone. I thought everyone had that. You see something and you're like, I wanna frame that. And then it becomes a picture. Mm-hmm. , it doesn't work that way. You need to be a photographer to, you know, use the light and, and everything. I think photography is wonderful. One of my favorite things to do with photography is street photography. And I walk the street, take my camera, take pictures with people, they have no clue. They're being photographed. And, and, and I take that split second of time where there is true beauty. Yeah. Happening

Else Kramer (01:34:11) - Because spontaneity,

Perry Knoppert (01:34:13) - Everything comes together. And, and recently I saw something on, on TV that chicken, chicken rack chickens prefer beautiful people.

Else Kramer (01:34:24) - What?

Perry Knoppert (01:34:25) - Yeah. Weird. So the symmetry of faces, chickens prefer the symmetry of

Else Kramer (01:34:32) - Faces. You can faces you can see beauty,

Perry Knoppert (01:34:33) - And then that's beauty. Right. And it's, but for me, the beauty is the, the, the beauty is for me, when it's not beautiful, and when everything is aligned, then it becomes beautiful of a sudden. I've, I've made this, I need to show you this. Maybe this is a very strange angle for the camera, but, okay. Sorry. So I made this photo book in the time of Corona. Can

Else Kramer (01:35:01) - You bring it in a little bit closer? Yep. Yep. Perfect.

Perry Knoppert (01:35:05) - It's, it's this tiny little book I need to show, like, okay. This, this picture. Yeah. Uh, this one that's graffiti on a wall, just a circle. And this was during the pandemic in Brussels. So that picture, this one means a lot to me. Yeah. And I can't describe it, but it's, it's in a way beautiful. And it's, it's very simple and elegant at the same time. So, um, you know, someone sitting in the grass, uh, this one Yes. In the

Else Kramer (01:35:42) - Park. Very solitary picture. I'm just describing it for the people listening. Yep. Photography. So what do you photo think?

Perry Knoppert (01:35:48) - Photography is photography. I love photography.

Else Kramer (01:35:49) - Um, what about art? How, how or why does it matter?

Perry Knoppert (01:35:53) - What do you mean?

Else Kramer (01:35:56) - Is art important? Even ,

Perry Knoppert (01:36:03) - I think, I think our hands, you know, I love the octopus eight arms. And, uh, people are always sending me octopus pictures and everything octopus goes to Perry and suckers and, and whatnot. These, these hands of ours are like with the octopus. So I'm fascinated by the brain and everything that's happening there. But I think our hands are our intelligence, and that's reflected by the art we make. Yes. So is art important? Oh my God. What a horrible question. . It's, it's everything.

Else Kramer (01:36:49) - And

Perry Knoppert (01:36:49) - It's everything.

Else Kramer (01:36:51) - I love that you're saying this because part of something I am kind of pushing or trying to talk about more in, in the coaching space and in the low space is, is I think everybody who just works with their head needs to also start making if they're not already. And I don't care if they bake a bread, right. Or pot a plant or make, because I consider that a way of making art as well, right? Yes. But I think as humans, that is so massively important to her wellbeing.

Perry Knoppert (01:37:20) - Yeah. And, and being inspired. Go to a museum, but even better, you know, museum still linear. Go to an art exhibition of an art gallery and go there even though you don't like the art that is there.

Else Kramer (01:37:36) - That's even better. Go

Perry Knoppert (01:37:37) - In . And so don't go to an art exhibition of Picasso that you already know, and then it feels so comfortable because now Oh yeah, I've seen. And then you put, take pictures, put it on Instagram and look at me. I'm at the Picasso show. And no, go to an art gallery and, and just look at art. And you don't have to understand what it is. Please. You don't need to know the title. You don't need need to read what's underneath the artwork. Forget about it. Look at it and see what happens inside. And it can triggers, it can open up new pathways. You can be inspired to have a different conversation with your manager the next day, because you've seen an artwork. Please go to an art gallery.

Else Kramer (01:38:28) - Look at art people. Amen. Amen.

Perry Knoppert (01:38:29) - Look at art. And when you fall in love with that art piece that you saw at the art gallery, freaking buy it. Instead of that new Mercedes-Benz, buy the artwork. Because then you can have that sensation every day when you're at home, you look at it and you're like, oh, so cool.

Else Kramer (01:38:46) - Who inspires you?

Perry Knoppert (01:38:52) - Yeah. That's, that's huge cliche to say this, everyone, all the conversations that I'm having, and if I'm, if I'm not doing like seven zoom calls a day, I get, I get nervous. Like, where is, where did everybody go? No, that's ridiculous. That's, that's not really true. But it's, there's so, so much,

Else Kramer (01:39:15) - Lemme rephrase it. I'm, I'm gonna rephrase it. Who do you wanna share with us that you think should be deserves a wider audience?

Perry Knoppert (01:39:28) - Oh God.

Else Kramer (01:39:29) -  so much responsibility. You can think about it and let me know, and I'll put it in

Perry Knoppert (01:39:35) - Notes. No, I, I can, I can share something very interesting. Hailey in South Africa. Mm-hmm. , what a beautiful example. Haley was in the clubhouse room when I asked a bunch of multipotentialite. What is a curious misfit? I'm looking for a symbol because I wanna get away from the term Multipotentialite. Yes. Polymath scanner. Highly gifted neurodiversity. Zebra in France. Yeah. Yeah.

Else Kramer (01:39:59) - Scanner.

Perry Knoppert (01:40:00) - Jesus. I don't wanna go there. I wanna have one symbol. And we're done. That's the octopus. Haley said to me after someone said, oh, I always send the octopus emoji that triggered the octopus with us. And everybody's like, octopus. Cool. And she said, have you seen my octopus teacher, octopus teacher documentary, Netflix, South Africa. Yeah. Filmmaker. Fucking awesome. Watched it five times at least.

Else Kramer (01:40:25) - Same.

Perry Knoppert (01:40:26) - So she inspired me with my octopus teacher. Haley's in South Africa, hay is a fashion designer. Haley creates clothing for plus size women

Else Kramer (01:40:39) - Love it.

Perry Knoppert (01:40:40) - Haley takes pictures of flowers every day and put that on social media. Haley has all her customers on WhatsApp. So she connects with them all with them on WhatsApp. She, she, she, she creates clay clothing for them, you know, whatever they will. She creates the designs herself, the fabric. And she's not doing it for the money. She is, I don't know what it is. She's an artist. And, and, and she is a beautiful human being. She's happy, inspiring. She has this building with all her employees, creating beautiful clothing and, and making so many women so happy because they have a plus size and they're unsecure about their body, and she helps them. It's awesome. But then next to her is Robin in South Africa? He's an art, he's, he's a math professor, and now he's a full-time artist and he makes, uh, uh, uh, murals. Mm. In commission. He sent me three or four artworks just to give to me. So beautiful. But then yesterday I was talking about creating documentaries with Gabriel Gabriel's from New York Lives now in the uk. And Gabriel has this amazing creative brain and does things that are so awesome. And I can continue like this for two hours. I love it. And like, but then Barbara in Italy, and then Emmanuel in Paris.

Else Kramer (01:42:18) - But everybody just needs to join

Perry Knoppert (01:42:21) - Yeah's movement. Yeah, I think so.

Else Kramer (01:42:24) - Final question. Mm-hmm. , do you have any rituals or routines? Yes. Or

Perry Knoppert (01:42:29) - Is it

Else Kramer (01:42:30) - You share

Perry Knoppert (01:42:30) - Them? Yes. That's the

Else Kramer (01:42:32) - Uni. Okay, here we go. People,

Perry Knoppert (01:42:34) - The uni ball. Right? It

Else Kramer (01:42:36) - Okay. I just have to tell this backstory, because when I met Perry , it was like, first I didn't, I haven't even told his story, but someone else told me I should meet him and talk to, to him. She said, there's this other guy talking about similar things. He's also Dutch, but he also has like a, an international audience and you guys should totally meet. And then we met, and then I think you started saying, yeah, there's this one pen in the world I totally love. And I just lifted my pen. I was like, is it the uni ball? ?

Perry Knoppert (01:43:04) - And then we have all the different colors of the, I get no people because you think, okay, you know, we, I get really upset when this thing is empty and I'm not able to get a new one within five minutes. So I have all these notebooks. So this is my other thing. I have moleskin notebooks, right? Black, right. Always the same size. Yeah. Always the same sticker of the octopus on it. And then every time I have a conversation, I write things down. So I'm showing this to the camera. If you're just listening. And then it needs to be in this black pen, because otherwise it looks horrible if it has different colors. Yeah. It needs to be, it just hurts consistent. Yes. It needs to flow. So it's very

Else Kramer (01:43:55) - Autistic Barry

Perry Knoppert (01:43:56) - Moles. Yes, I know. But that's, that's okay. So yeah, moles skin pan, very important. Um, I wear nail polish many, many times. That's also something, it, it, it does something with my brain. If I wear nail polished, I haven't figured it out what it is. Is

Else Kramer (01:44:14) - It like war paint or something?

Perry Knoppert (01:44:16) - I don't know. Well, it, it interesting. It, it, something happens. Yeah. Different. And then there's the final thing that I always have, I have never shown this to anyone. So there's always a candle burning on my

Else Kramer (01:44:26) - Desk. Oh my God, I love it.

Perry Knoppert (01:44:29) - And with Lord Shiva with it,

Else Kramer (01:44:31) - The darts.

Perry Knoppert (01:44:33) - And it's, yeah. You know where people who don't know Lord Shiva, uh, look it up. Uh, he's crazy as fuck as well. Yes. . And, and, and he is the God for all the fringes and all the people that are different. He, she is not. He or she. Um, she helps, he helps. It helps everyone. It's not boxed. So that's, for me, a symbol that I can relate to next to the octopus as well. So there's always a candle burning there. And, and that's it. I've a strong connection with India. I've never been there, but it feels fascinating. I have many people from India in the movement. That's, and, and I wear this one already now for 13 years. Every single

Else Kramer (01:45:22) - Showing us, I think, is it a, a Buddhist chain? Is it a prayer, um, chain or what bracelet? What

Perry Knoppert (01:45:30) - Is it? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it has, it's so for, this is for Buddhism, and it has a specific number of beats on it. I don't even know how many, and people use that for praying and whatnot. Right. I was in China. I moved to China. I came into Beijing after first few weeks I was at Yoong, which is a, uh, temple, a huge Buddha statue. Really? I don't know how I, it's, it's huge. It's beautiful. It's in the middle of the center. There's incident everywhere. There's people praying. And it's, I was there. I was like, oh my God, this is, this feels so good. And I was sitting down in the sun just watching people. And this Buddhist monk came and sat next to me, and he started talking to me in Chinese, not a word of Chinese in the first week. So I was like, dude, I started talking to him in Dutch because it doesn't matter.

Perry Knoppert (01:46:17) - Anyway, he was only Chinese, and I'm Dutch, so let's communicate. Didn't work at all. And then he, and he walked away and he made that gesture of, of stay there. So I, I was like, oh shit, what's happening? Okay, whatever. And, and he came back and he gave this to me. Wow. And, and, and he, and he, and he hold my hands for a little while, and that's it. And he, and he, and he went away. I've never seen him back. So for the three and a half years that I lived there, I've never seen him. And, and he gave this to me. So since that day, I'm wearing it every day. And I feel naked and weird. If I'm not wearing it.

Else Kramer (01:46:52) - I'm just gonna say another thing. You were able to receive.

Perry Knoppert (01:46:56) - Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Else Kramer (01:46:57) - Beautiful.

Perry Knoppert (01:46:58) - Beautiful. Maybe that's it. Thank.

Else Kramer (01:47:00) - Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been a beautiful meandering, non, non-linear interview. And we could talk for another eight hours, I'm sure. Maybe we'll do that someday. That'd be

Perry Knoppert (01:47:12) - Fun.

Else Kramer (01:47:12) - Yeah. But for now, thank you so much. Really

Perry Knoppert (01:47:14) - Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Elsa. I really enjoyed it. And it's, um, it was an interesting conversation. You surprised me many times. Like what? Oh yeah. Thank you so much. Thank

Else Kramer (01:47:26) - You. You're so welcome. Hey, smart human. Are you on my mailing list? And if not, why not? Because that is where you get the Friday thoughts, and you'll be the first one to know about podcast workbooks, new coaching programs, all the things. So go to coach kramer.org, click newsletter, and sign up. I look forward to being in your.